Logitech's Squeezebox Touch - opinions sought on quality

[nspindel]

FYI, I installed the soundcheck software mod toolkit last night.  I followed every recommendation of his, except running my server's network connection at 100mb instead of gigabit.  I already have a linear power supply for it (Welborne), and I have Bolder's digital mods, so I was already starting from a better-than-stock point.  I do notice a difference.  Everything seems more open, better clarity, punchier, etc.  It sounds great, but if someone told me after the fact that all that happened was a slight boost in gain, I wouldn't be shocked, as making it slightly louder can often be confused with better sound quality.  These mods do take some time to get set up, with lots of re-boots of the Touch.  So it's quite difficult to A/B back and forth if you don't have a second Touch without the mods.  But I'm definitely happy with the sound I'm getting after the mods.

 

[Audioexcels]

Is there a way to increase the gain going through the digital?  I just got my Touch today and it's out of the box, playing as I'm typing.  My pre/dac is on the light side in terms of getting sufficient gain to my system, though I have plenty of it when digital feed is through a standalone cdp or the Hiface.  Anything for me to get the signal gain stronger???

Won't review for now, but in stock form, it's better than the standalone device I have used that was superior to the Hiface.
 
Coax is very good indeed, though see above about my gain issues.  Yes it's on 100% volume.  I just may have to get out my other pre/dac whichi is arguably better anyhow, though I think both are on the same playing field.  I just wish this pre that's in there now can have more gain OR that the SBT can somehow have more gain in the digital signal.
 
As a standalone player, the SBT is not bad at all.  Because there is more gain going this route, it lends to a "fatter" bass.  All in all, it is nowhere near the resolution and every other adjective of the pre/dac BUT, it's something that would do just fine in most systems, even higher end ones that are looking to calm the sound a bit...It's kinda like this...going through the coax feed  into my pre/dac is like going through a SUPER resolving machine whereas going to the device directly is like sitting back and listening to the sugar coated MUCH SLOWER sound that is very subdued, but not at all "digitized" or words people put onto cheaper devices.
 
Anyhoo...time to figure out this signal issue or time to get out my other pre/dac which I really hope I do not have to do!

 

[nspindel]

There's no gain adjustment on the dac/pre?  If you're at 100% volume on the SB, I don't think there's much you can do, but I know that many dacs and pre's have a way of adjusting output gain.

 

[Audioexcels]

Ok...so in spite the  darn signal sucks,  the transparency is truly rediculous (fantastic for a stock digital feed). I can sense there can be some work on the device, but I'm still going to order the JKeny modded units and see how they do up  against a software modded SBT...oh...and the transporter arrives Friday.

Cheers!

 

[Audioexcels]

Quote:

There's no gain adjustment on the dac/pre?  If you're at 100% volume on the SB, I don't think there's much you can do, but I know that many dacs and pre's have a way of adjusting output gain.

 
Unfortunately, after installing the other pre-dac, there is the obvious that I already knew (more gain), but it's still not quite "there" in terms of what I would consider full drive in the signal. Gosh these two pre/dacs sound very similar...such a toss up!  One seems to have a tad more harmonics/extras maybe being tubed while the other transistor based one has a slight more refinement though it's hard to tell when the gain is quite a bit stronger with the transistor vs. tubed pre-dac.
 
It'll be interesting to see how the Transporter does signal wise (not that I really care to own such an expensive device!).  Got it only to trial/error it.

 

[Dynobot]

For information regarding Squeezebox and Transporter you probably want to visit the Squeezebox forum where there are experts that can actually help you.
 
As far as digital gain the Touch has the normal amount of gain for any digital out. 

 

[Audioexcels]

Quote:

For information regarding Squeezebox and Transporter you probably want to visit the Squeezebox forum where there are experts that can actually help you.
 
As far as digital gain the Touch has the normal amount of gain for any digital out. 

I do need to find more info on this.  Are you just running yours with the volume set/locked at 100 OR are you also using any volume via the PC? 
 

 

[Dynobot]

One Touch is locked to 100% and another I use the volume control. 
 
 
Quote:

I do need to find more info on this.  Are you just running yours with the volume set/locked at 100 OR are you also using any volume via the PC?
 

 

 

[Dynobot]

According to the standard SPDIF has a max output voltage of 0.6  volts, I am sure the Touch is within spec. volume wise it appears to be equal to my computers coax out as well as other usb/spdif products I have tried.
 
I would suggest that you make up for the lack of gain with your preamp.  Also the Dac chips themselves will clip if the input signal is too strong. Many people don't realize that a computers coax out can actually be greater than spec at 100% volume. So people who have a Dac with built in volume adjustment should not go higher than 70% or so with digital out.
 
http://www.interfacebus.com/SPDIF_Audio_Interface.html

 

[murrays]

The voltage on the digital signal has no relationship to the volume level of the audio output.  The digital signal is a stream of binary codes made up of 1's and 0's to represent the source signal.  The DAC decodes the digital data and scales it to its analog output, relative to its own 100% level.  The volume level can be adjusted digitally (e.g. in the Squeezebox) by mathematically converting the binary data before it is sent to the DAC. 
 
For example, if the binary codes are all halved (divided by 2) before sending, the DAC's analog output will be 6 dB quieter than before.
However, the digital data will be exactly the same voltage as before, because it is just the 0's and 1's.  Reducing the volume digitally can result from losing information (detail) when it is applied too much, due to the maths.  For this reason I prefer to leave the Squeezebox (SB3) volume at 100% and adjust the audio level in the amplifier.
 
For more information on digital scaling, research on the term "bit perfect".  "Bit perfect" means lossless storage and reproduction that ensures that the digital data reaching the DAC is the same as from the original recording.  Any digital level reduction means that the signal is no longer "bit perfect".

 

[Dynobot]

Your right murray

 

[IPodPJ]

Quote:

The voltage on the digital signal has no relationship to the volume level of the audio output.  The digital signal is a stream of binary codes made up of 1's and 0's to represent the source signal.  The DAC decodes the digital data and scales it to its analog output, relative to its own 100% level.  The volume level can be adjusted digitally (e.g. in the Squeezebox) by mathematically converting the binary data before it is sent to the DAC. 
 
For example, if the binary codes are all halved (divided by 2) before sending, the DAC's analog output will be 6 dB quieter than before.
However, the digital data will be exactly the same voltage as before, because it is just the 0's and 1's.  Reducing the volume digitally can result from losing information (detail) when it is applied too much, due to the maths.  For this reason I prefer to leave the Squeezebox (SB3) volume at 100% and adjust the audio level in the amplifier.
 
For more information on digital scaling, research on the term "bit perfect".  "Bit perfect" means lossless storage and reproduction that ensures that the digital data reaching the DAC is the same as from the original recording.  Any digital level reduction means that the signal is no longer "bit perfect".

You can reduce the digital volume control on the Touch or Transporter (since they are 24/96) by about 23dB with 16 bit audio before loss of signal, so they claim.
For 24 bit audio, you can't.
 

 

[murrays]

 
Quote:

You can reduce the digital volume control on the Touch or Transporter (since they are 24/96) by about 23dB with 16 bit audio before loss of signal, so they claim.
For 24 bit audio, you can't.
 

 
Yes, I would believe that amount would be inaudible when you have extra bits to spare.  After all, 23db is about 3.8 bits worth (by my reckoning).  However, it is still changing the signal - but in the same territory as whether lossy codecs make an audible difference.
I wouldn't want to lose 4 bits off basic 16 bit audio.
 
 

 

[IPodPJ]

Quote:

 
 
Yes, I would believe that amount would be inaudible when you have extra bits to spare.  After all, 23db is about 3.8 bits worth (by my reckoning).  However, it is still changing the signal - but in the same territory as whether lossy codecs make an audible difference.
I wouldn't want to lose 4 bits off basic 16 bit audio.

As far as I know the audio is processed within the DSP as 24 bit regardless of whether you are listening at 16 bit of 24 bit when you are using the digital output.  You should have no problem using any digital attenuation on 16 bit audio.
 
Also, most music does not use up the full dynamic range of a CD which is 96dB.  Most music tops out around 60dB, with the exception of some classical and well-mastered electronic music.  But if it's being processed at 144dB, there is no concern at all.

 

[murrays]

 
Quote:

As far as I know the audio is processed within the DSP as 24 bit regardless of whether you are listening at 16 bit of 24 bit when you are using the digital output.  You should have no problem using any digital attenuation on 16 bit audio.
 
Also, most music does not use up the full dynamic range of a CD which is 96dB.  Most music tops out around 60dB, with the exception of some classical and well-mastered electronic music.  But if it's being processed at 144dB, there is no concern at all.

Yeah, I'm sure it's just fine.  I think that's what Wadia do in their expensive CD players.  However, we are all a little bit obsessive at Head-Fi (aren't we?)

.  In my case, I just see digital upscaling followed by digital attenuation as two more filters in the signal path.
Anyway I have the older SB3: I am following the thread as I'm curious about how the newer Touch compares.