LKS Audio MH-DA003
Jun 15, 2017 at 1:29 PM Post #721 of 838
I would like to install a 12V trigger in in the MH-DA004. Any ideas on where to start?
I was thinking that worst case I can reverse engineer the signal sent from the controller to the board via that ribbon cable and tap into that but if someone can spot an easier method that would be great!
Or maybe someone has an idea what protocol and pin-out that controller is using?
 
Jun 16, 2017 at 1:02 AM Post #722 of 838
Jun 16, 2017 at 1:17 AM Post #723 of 838
@b0bb,

I can understand your concerns about relay reliability, but you know as I know that there are very reliable relays which can do the job perfectly, like the Takamisawa NA12W-K or others.
The gold contacts really do not oxidate that much as you mentioned, and, they are bifurcated, and, those are DPDT, so you can parallel those and reduce resistance to 25 mOhms.

Those Chinese relays, used at the boards I bought, are far from reliable, and this isn't related to relay reliability in common, they just are very cheapo and crappy.....

To prevent oxidation within relays, they often use a so called "WET circuit", which simply is a bypass film cap across switching contacts, in this case 100nF to 1uF should do the trick.

Quote from http://control.com/thread/963420679 :

"> What is Oxidation of relay contacts and what can be done to prevent it ??

For both relay and metallic switch contacts for low current level (e.g. logic) You have two choices.

1) use Au plated contacts

2) Use a film capacitor which has low ESR to "wet" the contacts. Unless the contact is specifically designed for dry contact switching (eg telephony sealed switches) you MUST use a cap to make it a "WET" circuit. This means the current during switching is high enough to burn through a partial oxidation layer to lower the contact resistance ESR using the low ESR and stored charge of a capacitor to dump the current across the contacts. The capacitor must be close to the switch. Suitable values of Film caps start at 10nF and for say 30Amp relays use 10uF tantalum or low ESR alum. This will keep the contacts clean when used enough. Normally current must be 10% of rated current to prevent oxidation. Although the transient from a low ESR cap will be much higher than this, the duration will be so short that there is not thermal rise except at the surface oxidation layer enough to burn off the ofxide.

Tony Stewart EE '75 (retired PEng)"



When looking at the Takamisawa specs, Electrical lifespan is about 500.000 operations at 1A-30VDC
It's mechanical lifespan is about 100.000.000 operations.

In my case, switching every 10 minutes, relays should exactly last as much as long as the 100F ultracaps which, if used 24/7, would last for 18 years of continuous playing.........

For my new design I will use those Takamisawa's, and put them in simple DIP-14 IC-sockets, which is very handy to replace a relay in case of troubles.

There are some people who are designing charge controllers, which just makes it easier to use (no runtime calcultaion because of voltage sensing), but still would need relays, mechanical or SolidState, or mosfets to switch.
You know as much as I know, voltage drop of SSR's or mosfets ruins ESR of ultracaps, which makes all those upcoming "better" designs worse sounding.
And, using voltage regulators also ruins the perfect audio characteristics of those ultracaps.

I can understand if you wanted to use utracap psu's for your LKS, it wouldn't be a practical design, but, since we are no commercial guys, and want the best of the best available SQ,
this should be of some interest to you.

Just try to power a simple USB-I2S interface with ultracaps, I am very sure you'll get interested................


Cheers,
Alex

The USB-I2S interfaces I use needs about 10W, so the relays will need to switch at least 3A@3.3V, the Takamisawa is not rated for this.

Gold has a low boiling point and will evaporate in the arc instead of oxidizing, I would use relays with Palladium or Indium alloys in the contacts minus the gold plating.The Takamisawa is using a Silver-Palladium alloy under the plating.

Gold plated relays like this one should only be used for switching low level circuits like DAC audio outputs.

TE makes a lot of relays and they have a good write up on relay contact materials, at the end of the article is some info on how to calculate the snubber network, aka the "wet" part.
I see this as a complication when using relays.
http://www.te.com/commerce/Document...v&DocNm=13C3236_AppNote&DocType=CS&DocLang=EN

I see designs using SSRs and I would not use these designs.

MOSFETS switches are another matter, for example the SSM6J0503N from Toshiba has an on resistance of 32.4 mOhm @ 3A, 4.5V
This is about 2/3 the contact resistance of the Takamisawa (50mOhm) and it carries a higher current without the contact wear concerns. Digikey sells them.

https://www.digikey.com/product-det...e/SSM6J503NU,LF(T/SSM6J503NULF(TCT-ND/3522397

The link below show the kinds of features I am interested in, namely microprocessor controlled transistor bank switching and an integrated charging circuit.
https://uptoneaudio.com/products/ultracap-lps-1

Just waiting for the rest of the industry to catch up.
 
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Jun 16, 2017 at 5:41 AM Post #724 of 838
I would like to install a 12V trigger in in the MH-DA004. Any ideas on where to start?
I was thinking that worst case I can reverse engineer the signal sent from the controller to the board via that ribbon cable and tap into that but if someone can spot an easier method that would be great!
Or maybe someone has an idea what protocol and pin-out that controller is using?

An external current sensing power strip is the easiest, use a 12V wall wart on the controlled outlets for the trigger.

BITS makes one with an adjustable current threshold
https://www.bitsltd.net/products/Details.aspx?p=1864396&sc=78&sg=all

If you want to trigger from standby mode, you will need to check and see if there is a difference in the current consumption between on and standby modes.
 
Jun 16, 2017 at 6:36 AM Post #725 of 838
An external current sensing power strip is the easiest, use a 12V wall wart on the controlled outlets for the trigger.

BITS makes one with an adjustable current threshold
https://www.bitsltd.net/products/Details.aspx?p=1864396&sc=78&sg=all

If you want to trigger from standby mode, you will need to check and see if there is a difference in the current consumption between on and standby modes.

Thanks, but I want my pre-amp to trigger the DAC to turn on and I think what you describe would do the other way around. My pre-amp already has a 12V trigger out.
I really don't want to keep the DAC on all the time and would prefer if it was on standby in order to reduce the heat and prolong the life of the parts. Is turning the DAC on and off instead of using standby worse, better or the same?
 
Jun 18, 2017 at 2:09 PM Post #726 of 838
I really don't want to keep the DAC on all the time and would prefer if it was on standby in order to reduce the heat and prolong the life of the parts. Is turning the DAC on and off instead of using standby worse, better or the same?
Assuming the dac was designed by a competent engineer, leaving a dac on all of the time does not reduce its life expectancy. This belief is a holdover from decades ago when tubes (including picture tubes) were common. Putting it in standby mode will only save you a few dollars a year.
 
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Jun 20, 2017 at 5:14 PM Post #727 of 838
The stock 004 is quite good, SQ wise several notches above the 003, even my modded one, it has caused a degree of complacency

Yes, I must admit that the stock goodness of the 004 has me in complacency mode to an extent also.
 
Jun 20, 2017 at 5:35 PM Post #728 of 838
Three questions to the floor:

1) Would a USB interface such as the following provide an improvement over the Amanero board?

https://www.shenzhenaudio.com/singx...nterface-with-xmos-xu208-cpld-dsd256-dop.html

I ask as I have always been interested in trying an I2S interface, and the asking price for the above unit is not astronomical.


2) Due to an issue with the US->UK power converter for my Adcom GFP-750 pre-amp, I am currently using the 004 in 'preamp mode', i.e. using the digital volume control with the unit connected directly into my power amps. When I can afford it, I will probably put a Schiit Freya inline, to replace the Adcom. However, I am wondering at what point the quantization noise degradation of a digital volume control becomes unnoticeable. FWIW, I typically listen to my 004 with the level set at around -49 to -55db. It's probably a very subjective question, but at what point does an inline passive pre-amp make more sense than the native digital volume control? My small brain says "go for the resistor and 0db" but is that really going to give better results than a digital volume control with no other component inline?


3) Has anyone compared the balanced to the unbalanced outputs? I've used both options direct into my power amps, and I seem to find myself preferring the unbalanced connection - which surprises me somewhat.
 
Jun 21, 2017 at 11:00 PM Post #729 of 838
Three questions to the floor:

1) Would a USB interface such as the following provide an improvement over the Amanero board?

https://www.shenzhenaudio.com/singx...nterface-with-xmos-xu208-cpld-dsd256-dop.html

I ask as I have always been interested in trying an I2S interface, and the asking price for the above unit is not astronomical.
LKS configured the 9038 to re-clock all incoming streams, the custom re-clock logic that you will be paying for on the SU-1 largely goes to waste.
The cost is within 50USD of the Pulsar OCXO, this replaces the XO in the DAC at the the very centre of the 9038's re-clock logic, I think that mod has better value for the money.

LKS paid little attention to the I2S interfaces, most of the logic is powered by the slow and somewhat noisy LM317, the LM317 is a huge step backward from the LT317 used on the 003.
Take a look at how PSAudio implemented I2S and compare to see how I2S is poorly done on the LKS.

I do not see any major changes in the I2S section between the 003 and 004 and expect the same kinds of problems with the SU-1, namely clicks and sometimes loud bangs when switching sample rates or mode changing between PCM and DSD.

Link below describes how the SU-1 does not play nicely with the LKS 003.
https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/lks-audio-mh-da003.745032/page-25#post-12927931

The very same seller in your link blamed the LKS and walked away leaving the customer high and dry.
Suggest you check to see if the seller eventually made it right for the customer.

LKS utterly messed up the enhanced USB interface implementation on the 004.
  • The USB thing is powered by a secondary winding off the digital transformer, creating a direct path for digital noise from the host + the USB board right into to the DAC. Toroids have very wide bandwidth giving the noise a very low impedance path coupled through the secondary windings, this bypassed the interwinding screen on the transformer rendering it useless.
  • LKS did not insulate the USB input from the rest of the DAC metal work, this joined the ground on the host and the DAC completely bypassing the galvanic noise isolator.

This amateurish blunder robbed the 004 of a large chunk of its potential.

The fix is simple, power the USB board with its separate transformer with an interwinding screen between the primary and secondary windings and most importantly insulate the USB input from the rest of the metalwork.

The SQ difference after this change is not subtle.
Improvement on a level similar to the step up in SQ between the 003 and the stock 004

3) Has anyone compared the balanced to the unbalanced outputs? I've used both options direct into my power amps, and I seem to find myself preferring the unbalanced connection - which surprises me somewhat.

That is expected, the unbalanced output is driven by an fully buffered active filter, this allows it to drive a wide variety of cables without difficulty as the active stage compensates for the cable linearity issues.

The balanced stage has a passive filter after the I/V converter, this makes it highly dependent on the load represented by the impedances of the cables you are using and the input impedance of the power amps.

Balanced can be better if the rest of the audio chain can take advantage of differential drive, all of my amps, headphones and speakers use differential drive.

Not much can be done here except to use low(ish) capacitance balanced cable with linear response in the audio band designed for professional use like the Canare L4-6ES or the Gotham GAC/GAC+ series if you want to spend the money. I would steer clear of the Audiophile stuff for the XLR outputs on the LKS. A preamp in the middle might work depending on quality, I have used a Schiit Mjolnir as preamp with decent results.

LKS decision to use an unbuffered passive XLR output is an unfortunate triumph of audio "purity" over common sense.
The LKS004 is a decently designed unit for most parts but it has quite a few shortfalls when it comes to implementation.
 
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Jun 22, 2017 at 12:39 AM Post #730 of 838
I ran my 003 with the lid off also. Not so aesthetically pleasing to all, but a good way to keep temps down!

Running with the lid off is not a good idea, CCHD-575 has a 50ppm tempco, @100MHz, this is 5kHz.

This is equivalent to adding phase noise to the critical 5kHz midrange region everytime the temp changes by 1ºC, about the magnitude change when the AC or heating kicks in.

Leaving the lid on allows the heat to build up and you have a poor person's equivalent of a crystal oven.
 
Jun 22, 2017 at 3:19 AM Post #731 of 838
Brill, thanks b0bb as ever for the responses. Always hugely appreciated.

Yes, I did a bit of digging on the SU-1 and found the clicks and pops story earlier in the thread, and also on the vendor website Q&A section. I shall give the unit a miss. Are there other options, or is it best instead to tweak away at the Amanero board as described? I'm guessing yes to the latter, given the LKS I2S implementation isn't so great.

The Schiit Freya has been top of my passive preamp list for the last 3 months, I will pull the trigger shortly, I think.

004 modding will start in 2-4 weeks, once my wrist is usable again post-op.
 
Jun 22, 2017 at 1:24 PM Post #732 of 838
LKS configured the 9038 to re-clock all incoming streams, the custom re-clock logic that you will be paying for on the SU-1 largely goes to waste.

Is this also true for the signal coming from the Amanero board? Would replacing the Amanero with a better re-clocked and buffered source signal bypass the LM317 issues and the main CCHD-575 clock?
 
Jun 22, 2017 at 1:44 PM Post #733 of 838
Brill, thanks b0bb as ever for the responses. Always hugely appreciated.

Yes, I did a bit of digging on the SU-1 and found the clicks and pops story earlier in the thread, and also on the vendor website Q&A section. I shall give the unit a miss. Are there other options, or is it best instead to tweak away at the Amanero board as described? I'm guessing yes to the latter, given the LKS I2S implementation isn't so great.

The Schiit Freya has been top of my passive preamp list for the last 3 months, I will pull the trigger shortly, I think.

004 modding will start in 2-4 weeks, once my wrist is usable again post-op.

The Amanero design is almost 5 years old and I am looking to for a replacement, the 2 generations of XMOS have so far proved to be a disappointment. The Singxer F-1 comes the closest but it is still bus powered.

A passive preamp after the XLR output may not work in your situation given that you can already hear a difference in the outputs, the good thing about the Freya is that it has an active mode.
On the XLR use the active mode, on the RCA use passive.

As far as modding, powering the the USB board with a transformer with an interwinding screen is probably the easiest, for this to work the USB metal can has to be taped up to isolate from the rest of the DAC chassis.
 
Jun 22, 2017 at 1:52 PM Post #734 of 838
Is this also true for the signal coming from the Amanero board? Would replacing the Amanero with a better re-clocked and buffered source signal bypass the LM317 issues and the main CCHD-575 clock?
The USB input is just a USB to I2S converter feeding an internal I2S header, LKS spent most of the effort on making sure this was properly done and it is reclocked.
The enhanced USB interface has its own power supply and does not use the 317, it does not work too well out in stock form as LKS did not implement the powering and grounding properly.

I have not been able to find anything that can out perform the Amanero on the LKS at present.
 
Jun 22, 2017 at 2:12 PM Post #735 of 838
The USB input is just a USB to I2S converter feeding an internal I2S header, LKS spent most of the effort on making sure this was properly done and it is reclocked.
The enhanced USB interface has its own power supply and does not use the 317, it does not work too well out in stock form as LKS did not implement the powering and grounding properly.

I have not been able to find anything that can out perform the Amanero on the LKS at present.

I'm waiting on the FIFO and clock boards from Ian here: https://github.com/iancanada/DocumentDownload and I have one of the new XMOS boards to use just for the USB input (it seems to have a better Linux DSD native support than Amanero) http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/107-xmos-dsd-dxd-768khz-high-quality-usb-to-i2sdsd-pcb.html but I was thinking of feeding the output from the above via the I2S Ethernet input of the 004.
If I understand correctly, I should do it via the Amanero header instead?
 

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