[Ggroch]

You said you had a LD MKiii? How do you like that? I’d it worth an upgrade from the mkii? Any tubes you recommend?

i have never used an MKII, so cannot comment on the difference. I owned a Darkvoice 336SE for a while and like the MKiii a lot better for what some may think is a strange reason. The 336SE does not have adjustable gain switches like the MKiii has, so it has lots of gain all the time. I could only use the first 1/4 of the volume control with half of my headphones. The MKiii has 4 different gain adjustment settings, so I can use both high efficiency phones, and my Powered Montitors (preamp mode) and still have great volume control. I think they both sounded great. I did not own them at the same time, so I cannot directly compare. I am very happy with the MKiii.

Best tubes: As my above post 11456 indicates, I have very little experience with different tubes. My 1st upgrades are GE JAN 5654W. Chosen because they are very highly rated in the first posts on this thread, and because they are in very good supply (cheap). I think they sound great.

I have just ordered 2 more tested pairs to try: Voskhod 6J1P-EV , and Tung Sol JTL-6AK5 - I got them from highly rated sellers, but not Yenaudio because these sellers were cheaper.

I am pretty convinced that the quality of sound when you tube roll is not at all related to how much you paid for the tubes. In fact, if we assume that back in the tube days radio manufacturers and other users, like the military, chose tubes because they were the best functionally, then it makes sense that many of the very best tubes were made in large quantities...and should be pretty cheap now. So in many cases (but certainly not all) some of the more common tubes, like the GE JAN 5654W, a military tube, can be some of the best.

 

[Ggroch]

Can't remember why, but the best results with speakers are supposed to be when you turn up the volume on the LD as much as you can without getting distortion. I also seem to remember that using headphones together with the speakers, lowers the volume on the headphones.
You have to watch out that you lower the volume before using headphones - could be way too loud using the same setting as for speakers.....

Then LD Manual text


All good info Mordy...but the settings you describe are mostly valid when you are connecting the LD between the Outlaw Pre-Out, and the Outlaw Main In loop.... Not in the external loop like we are doing here.

The instructions for the Outlaw say that the External Out Loop volume is fixed, not variable. So the volume control on the Outlaw should not effect the External Out (the LD input) at all. The Outlaw volume, (and other pre-amp adjustments like tone controls) comes AFTER the External In (LD output). If the manual is right, this means that if you are listening to headphones on the LD, the volume control on the Outlaw should not effect it at all.

If the instructions are correct (easy for Mathew to test), then the Outlaw's External Processor loop works totally within the Pre-amp section of the Outlaw...and would not be direct coupled to the amp. (I am not an expert here).

All of the other precautions the user guide mentions seem like very good advice.

......One last thing to remember is keep all your components connected to the same ground, as introducing another amplifier in a pre-power setup increases the likelihood of introducing a ground loop.
As far as I know, my Outlaw RR2150 is a DC coupled amp, and I did experience a meltdown of one channel (the amp blew up). Don't know if it was connected to the Little Dot or a blown speaker or both, but it was very unpleasant. I also don't know if the RR2160 incorporates protective circuitry, which apparently my old Sony amp has...Just be forewarned and careful....

WOW!...... you might have mentioned the risk of the LD blowing up your Outlaw before I offered all of this free advice

I am hoping and expecting that inserting the LD into the external loop bypasses most of the danger....just keep the gain of the LD buffer to Zero (same volume as out of the circuit. This has always been the best advice when using other processors too, like graphic equalizers. You set the EQ to the way you like it first, and then set the overall gain (master Equalizer volume) so that it is about the same when it is in and out of the circuit.

 

[matthew23]

Can't remember why, but the best results with speakers are supposed to be when you turn up the volume on the LD as much as you can without getting distortion. I also seem to remember that using headphones together with the speakers, lowers the volume on the headphones.
You have to watch out that you lower the volume before using headphones - could be way too loud using the same setting as for speakers.

Here is the link to the Little Dot MKIII manual:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/5f8jzzwbxhulf3a/Little Dot MK III Reference Guide.docx?dl=0
Page 9 reads:
Little Dot MK III Pre-Amplifier Use

The Little Dot MK III is not

to

be used with a DC or direct coupled power amplifie

r. Doing so may

result in damage to your Little Dot and/or downstre

am components! The Little Dot MK III should only

be used with AC / capacitor coupled power amplifier

s. If you are unsure if your power amplifier or

receiver is AC or DC coupled, please contact the ma

nufacturer

’

s support line.

The pre-amplification signal in the Little Dot MK III

includes both the driver and power tubes for better

compatibility with power amplifiers with low input im

pedance (for example, transistor-based power amps).

Always

power on your Little Dot MK III pre-amplifier befor

e you power on your connected power amplifier

as

this is good practice for any pre-power combination (i

.e. power on components from upstream to

downstream).

It is also

highly recommended

to wait at least a minute after powering on your Li

ttle Dot

before turning on your power amplifier so that the Li

ttle Dot

’

s tubes have time to stabilize.

When powering your system off,

always

switch everything off from downstream to upstream, i.e

. first turn off

your power amplifier, then your pre-amp, and finally y

our source.

For best sound quality and lowest noise, first maximize

your source

’

s output level without introducing gain

(i.e. to 0 dB), and then set your Little Dot MK III

’

s volume to a relatively high level. Amplification d

one at the

pre-amp stage will result in less noise than amplificat

ion done at the power amplifier stage (if the ampli

fier

you are using as a power amp has volume control at all

).

One last thing to remember is keep all your components

connected to the same ground, as introducing

another amplifier in a pre-power setup increases the l

ikelihood of introducing a ground loop.
As far as I know, my Outlaw RR2150 is a DC coupled amp, and I did experience a meltdown of one channel (the amp blew up). Don't know if it was connected to the Little Dot or a blown speaker or both, but it was very unpleasant. I also don't know if the RR2160 incorporates protective circuitry, which apparently my old Sony amp has.
Just be forewarned and careful....
Sorry for the poor layout when I copied the manual.

That is really scary. We’re you able to get it fixed?

 

[matthew23]

i have never used an MKII, so cannot comment on the difference. I owned a Darkvoice 336SE for a while and like the MKiii a lot better for what some may think is a strange reason. The 336SE does not have adjustable gain switches like the MKiii has, so it has lots of gain all the time. I could only use the first 1/4 of the volume control with half of my headphones. The MKiii has 4 different gain adjustment settings, so I can use both high efficiency phones, and my Powered Montitors (preamp mode) and still have great volume control. I think they both sounded great. I did not own them at the same time, so I cannot directly compare. I am very happy with the MKiii.

Best tubes: As my above post 11456 indicates, I have very little experience with different tubes. My 1st upgrades are GE JAN 5654W. Chosen because they are very highly rated in the first posts on this thread, and because they are in very good supply (cheap). I think they sound great.

I have just ordered 2 more tested pairs to try: Voskhod 6J1P-EV , and Tung Sol JTL-6AK5 - I got them from highly rated sellers, but not Yenaudio because these sellers were cheaper.

I am pretty convinced that the quality of sound when you tube roll is not at all related to how much you paid for the tubes. In fact, if we assume that back in the tube days radio manufacturers and other users, like the military, chose tubes because they were the best functionally, then it makes sense that many of the very best tubes were made in large quantities...and should be pretty cheap now. So in many cases (but certainly not all) some of the more common tubes, like the GE JAN 5654W, a military tube, can be some of the best.

I just ordered the Voskhod 6J1P-EV earlier today after reading how bad the stock tubes are. Looking forward to trying them out. Good info on the military tubes as well, what you say makes a lot of sense. Maybe I’ll try the 5654W’s next...they can be found very cheap on eBay. Can you PM me the links to the seller?

 

[Ggroch]

The GE JAN tubes I got were like these from oletronix. They were very cheap, matched, arrived looking new (very well packed), and sound great. Only thing I have ever purchased from them, but with 2800 plus feedback mentions, all positive, you are not risking much.

I think oletronix sells a lot of these GE JANs at slightly different prices depending on how strong they test, so you can spend a bit more with his other listings if you want matched tubes that test stronger.

IMHO: If tubes test as new (like this particular set) I do not think there is an advantage in sound or expected lifespan over picking a set with even stronger output, but there is very little cost difference as well.

 

[matthew23]

That’s actually the seller I had in my cart...thanks. Heading to bed but thanks for your help, I learned a lot!

 

[Ggroch]

That’s actually the seller I had in my cart...thanks. Heading to bed but thanks for your help, I learned a lot!

ONE More thing...based on Mordy's input. When you are first trying any of the new tubes, disconnect from the Outlaw and just use the LD by itself at first. As I understand it some of the biggest risk at damaging an amp comes when tubes go bad...sends nasty stuff out the preamp outputs.

 

[mordy]

That is really scary. We’re you able to get it fixed?

Hi M23,
Outlaw Audio were very gracious and fixed my receiver for free (I had to pay for shipping).
One of my Polk Monitor50 speakers blew a driver, and I got new ones under the warranty and was able to install them myself. I don't know the reason why it went bad, whether from the speaker or the amp, but still an unpleasant and sobering experience.
Sent an email to Outlaw customer service to ask if the new RR2160 has protective circuitry.

 

[matthew23]

Hi M23,
Outlaw Audio were very gracious and fixed my receiver for free (I had to pay for shipping).
One of my Polk Monitor50 speakers blew a driver, and I got new ones under the warranty and was able to install them myself. I don't know the reason why it went bad, whether from the speaker or the amp, but still an unpleasant and sobering experience.
Sent an email to Outlaw customer service to ask if the new RR2160 has protective circuitry.

That is great. I am glad to know that my receiver is backed by a good company...

 

[matthew23]

ONE More thing...based on Mordy's input. When you are first trying any of the new tubes, disconnect from the Outlaw and just use the LD by itself at first. As I understand it some of the biggest risk at damaging an amp comes when tubes go bad...sends nasty stuff out the preamp outputs.

Thanks - new tubes arrive tonight so I will detach RCAs in back and let them run a bit.

 

[mordy]

Thanks - new tubes arrive tonight so I will detach RCAs in back and let them run a bit.

Here is the definitive answer on how to connect the Little Dot to the RR2160:

The EPL loop input on the RR2160 is direct coupled to the input switching chip.
Therefore, you cannot use that headphone pre-amp connected to that input.

The input of the main amp stage is capacitor coupled.
So, if you intend on using this headphone pre-amp with the RR2160, I would recommend you
only connect via the pre-out/main-in jacks.

Best Regards,
Jim Michelson

In other words, do NOT use the external processor loop.

 

[Ggroch]

In other words, do NOT use the external processor loop.

Wow, I was wrong then. I hope Mathew sees this. Only been wrong once before

If I understood you correctly, you hooked your LD to the Main in of your different model Outlaw when it failed, so that may have been caused by something else.

I think with this new information from Jim Michelson who should know, and from your experience, if it was my gear I would probably just hook the input of the LD to the tape REC OUT on the Outlaw. Don't connect the Pre-out at all. Use the LD for headphones and share the Outlaw as a source switcher.

Otherwise, you are right, it looks like the Pre/Main is how to do it. The problem is that then you have to physically disconnect the LD to get it out of the circuit if you do not want to use the tube preamp/buffer.

 

[Johnybuchar]

I can accept this awful experience. I wanted to use LD3 as a preamp with power part of Classé CAP151 (250w/4ohm/Channel!). I didn't know the instructions to wait for a while than LD3 stabilizes. I turned the power amplifier on and It sounded very loud hum from my standspeakers. Result was totally burnt bass speakers! That was LD3 as preamp for the first and last time .

I am tasting the Phillips JAN 5654W at this moment and I have to say WOOOW! I highly recommend them together with Tesla 6F32 and military Voshkod 6zh1p.

 

[matthew23]

Here is the definitive answer on how to connect the Little Dot to the RR2160:

The EPL loop input on the RR2160 is direct coupled to the input switching chip.
Therefore, you cannot use that headphone pre-amp connected to that input.

The input of the main amp stage is capacitor coupled.
So, if you intend on using this headphone pre-amp with the RR2160, I would recommend you
only connect via the pre-out/main-in jacks.

Best Regards,
Jim Michelson

In other words, do NOT use the external processor loop.

Thanks for doing that!!! I will unhook it and just like Ggroch suggests, use it in the REC out for headphone use only. A bit disappointing because I wanted the "tube sound" through the receiver/speakers as well, but better to not risk frying anything. Thanks so much to you both for all of your help!!

 

[mordy]

Wow, I was wrong then. I hope Mathew sees this. Only been wrong once before

If I understood you correctly, you hooked your LD to the Main in of your different model Outlaw when it failed, so that may have been caused by something else.

I think with this new information from Jim Michelson who should know, and from your experience, if it was my gear I would probably just hook the input of the LD to the tape REC OUT on the Outlaw. Don't connect the Pre-out at all. Use the LD for headphones and share the Outlaw as a source switcher.

Otherwise, you are right, it looks like the Pre/Main is how to do it. The problem is that then you have to physically disconnect the LD to get it out of the circuit if you do not want to use the tube preamp/buffer.

Hi Gg,
When my receiver failed it was hooked up to the external processor loop - I did not know any better. It is possible that a voltage spike from the LD fried a speaker driver, which caused a short in the receiver, but I am only guessing.