[drdiem]

Hi all,
 
I've been looking back on how I got to where I am now (and where to go next) and wondered if others have traveled a similar path.
 
My first dive into headphone audiophilia was with the HD650. I naively assumed that all headphones would be equally as involving and musical as it is, so when I went looking for a headphone that was "like the HD650 but with more treble" I thought it'd be easy. Oh how you must all be laughing at my naivety!
 
I listened to Audeze, Beyer, HiFiMan, and all of them either sounded too like the HD650 to be worth upgrading (Audeze - yes, way better bass but not treble), too trebly (Beyer) or just not well-balanced enough (all HiFiMans to my ear have one thing or another about their frequency spectrum that stands out as 'wrong').
 
When I listened to the HD800 (just for kicks really - it was way too expensive for me to consider buying it) I was shocked by how much detail I heard. This and the soundstage just blew me away, and I thought to myself "This isn't the headphone I was looking for, but it's clearly so much better than the HD650 so I'll go for it".
 
In the 3 months since, I've applied the Anaxilus 2.0 mod to remove the HD800 sibilance (a great success) and thence tried to get comfortable with the headphone in lean-back listening sessions, and I have continually come away disappointed. Somehow I am just not drawn into the music in the same way I used to be with the HD650.
 
I know my amplifier (the Matrix m-Stage) is low-end, but everyone says that its a good match for the headphone so I can't easily lay the blame there. It is my belief that a DAC has less effect on the sound one hears than the amp (after all the headphone circuit is formed with the amp - the DAC is further removed along the chain) so my thinking is that so long as the DAC is reasonable (I've an HRT microStreamer) one isn't going to make a huge difference to the sound by changing it.
 
So right now I'm at the point where I'd like to hear the HD800 on a mid-range tube amp (e.g. DNA Sonnett) to see whether that'll solve my lack-of-musical-involvement problem, or continue my headphone quest with my current amplifier.
 
So then, when I read such good things about the HE-560 I thought that finally there might be a headphone that is my mythical "HD650 with more treble". See my comparative review here. I learnt that what I think the HD800 is missing is midrange, so in my continuing quest to find the "HD650 with more treble" I'm wondering:
 
- will a better (likely valve) amp fill in the HD800's missing midrange and warmth?
- would a cable upgrade improve the midrange?
- what other headphones do people think I should audition?
 
And, finally, what is your odyssey story?
 
 
Cheers,
 
Ian

 

[bahamot]

Have you try AKG K701/702?

 

[Dafo]

...or maybe the akg k712?

 

[drdiem]

I haven't tried any AKGs - many thanks for the suggestions!

 

[GearMe]

While I'm working my way up the headphone ladder, your topic interested me for a couple reasons.  I recently heard the HE500 and had your experience quoted below but with the 500s instead of the 560s.  It's exciting to know that the 560s are even better.  
 
..."Wow!" moments during the audition - times when I was summarily torn from my analytical comparison consciousness directly into _listening_ to the music; I had no choice in the matter...
 
In short, hearing the 500s made me dump my plan to purchase some HD650s and point towards the HE500s on Black Friday.
 
On a side note, it's perplexing to me that the HD800s require all this work to enjoy them!  
 
TBH, I still really enjoy my HD558s...in particular how the timbre and realism of some music comes across -- especially acoustic guitar, jazz quartets, chamber music, female vocals, etc. If Sennheiser can get this right on a low end set of cans, can't they leave well enough alone?  All the resolution in world makes no difference to me if I'm not enjoying the music.  As I write this, I'm beginning to feel like I should reconsider the 650s for my next purchase and shoot for the HE560s next year. 
 
A related prediction, it's just a matter of time before someone chimes in to tell you that you need to spend $5K on a new amp and DAC.  

 

[drdiem]

  While I'm working my way up the headphone ladder, your topic interested me for a couple reasons.  I recently heard the HE500 and had your experience quoted below but with the 500s instead of the 560s.  It's exciting to know that the 560s are even better.  
 
..."Wow!" moments during the audition - times when I was summarily torn from my analytical comparison consciousness directly into _listening_ to the music; I had no choice in the matter...
 
In short, hearing the 500s made me dump my plan to purchase some HD650s and point towards the HE500s on Black Friday.
 
On a side note, it's perplexing to me that the HD800s require all this work to enjoy them!  
 
TBH, I still really enjoy my HD558s...in particular how the timbre and realism of some music comes across -- especially acoustic guitar, jazz quartets, chamber music, female vocals, etc. If Sennheiser can get this right on a low end set of cans, can't they leave well enough alone?  All the resolution in world makes no difference to me if I'm not enjoying the music.  As I write this, I'm beginning to feel like I should reconsider the 650s for my next purchase and shoot for the HE560s next year. 
 
A related prediction, it's just a matter of time before someone chimes in to tell you that you need to spend $5K on a new amp and DAC.  

 
Yeah the HD800 are a conundrum for sure. On the one hand they're amazing, on the other they can give you the cold shoulder. Kind of like dating a supermodel 

 
As for the whole amp/DAC thing, I'm getting great advice and am going to at least try out the 'phone on a >$1000 valve amp before I decide where to put my money - there might be life in this path yet - but if not then I'll be dumping my supermodel for something less high-maintenance 

 

 

[GearMe]

   
Yeah the HD800 are a conundrum for sure. On the one hand they're amazing, on the other they can give you the cold shoulder. Kind of like dating a supermodel 

 
As for the whole amp/DAC thing, I'm getting great advice and am going to at least try out the 'phone on a >$1000 valve amp before I decide where to put my money - there might be life in this path yet - but if not then I'll be dumping my supermodel for something less high-maintenance 

 

 
Yeah, a nice tube amp makes sense...you can buy some tubes that pair well with each of your cans and then roll them accordingly.
 
FWIW, the AKG line is worth a listen.  I picked up some 'like new' Q701s from Amazon Warehouse on a lark for less than $140...very enjoyable mix of soundstage, detail, etc. with a balanced sound signature.

 

[gevorg]

Have you tried just EQing the highs down a bit on the HD800s? Works wonders with HD800 and easily adjustable and reversible.

Here is what I use:

 

[drdiem]

Have you tried just EQing the highs down a bit on the HD800s? Works wonders with HD800 and easily adjustable and reversible.

Here is what I use:

 
Thanks for the suggestion. In my case (with Anaxilus 2.0 mod in place) it'd instead be a case of trimming the mids up somewhat; I'll experiment with this for kicks.
 
The drawback is that I just hate using EQ to correct a hardware problem, and I'd have to either change my transport since BitPerfect (as its name suggests!) is all about transmitting the bits untouched from disk to DAC, or else put analogue EQ in the chain which'd be another expense.

 

[fccn75]

drdiem,  just curios as what your HD800 serial number begins with.  Of all the reading I've done and finally taking the plunge to get one finally, I was left wondering where's the airy details and deep wide soundstage.  My unit begins with 30XXX.
 
I read other threads where the gist was the older 800's are more trebly and with details that are unforgiving and the newer ones are more smooth and less peaky on the upper end.  At least the one I have sounds very smooth with extended taut low end but my Fostex TH900 has more highs!  That and the airy presentation is slightly veiled.  Either that or I have a bad pair.
 
Just wondering anyone experience the same as I did on units with s/n 30XXX vs say a late 2012 unit?  I could have sworn that back then the set I was testing had the unforgiving upper end and lack bass to the point of being way too lean, however, the soundstage was much more spacious compared to the latest one.

 

[xaval]

@gevorg Fabfilter is great. I use it with Audirvana+. Very transparent processing and subtle enough to improve problem areas. Recommended

 
I never use EQ on heaphones I don't like though... i find it very rare that EQ can make a bad sounding system into something decent. 

 

[jjcha]

- will a better (likely valve) amp fill in the HD800's missing midrange and warmth? - would a cable upgrade improve the midrange?
- what other headphones do people think I should audition?
 
And, finally, what is your odyssey story?
 
 
Cheers,
 
Ian

 
I've gone through a number of HD600s and HD650s.  Great cans, but never my slice of cake.  I've had them with plenty of good/competent amps, but also will say there are some amps that have done utterly amazing things with them.  If you're looking for the HD650 with more treble, I'd prob. first look to maybe trying a HD600(?), and then explore other amps, sources, cables, etc., to get as opposed to trying to find a mythical can.
 
But based on your experience also with the HD800, I wonder if something like the Stax Omega 2 might be something you should try.  But like the HD650, it is, to my ears, dark, and needs the right equipment to remedy that as well as bring out everything they're capable of.
 
I doubt the AKG K701s or its ilk are going to satisfy you.  They're less dark than the HD650 but give up too much in terms of air, tone, texture, etc.  They're great all-round cans but I've always considered them jack of all trades and masters of none.  You're looking for a master-level headphone.
 
Good luck,
 
-Jason

 

[xaval]

HD600 is more airy on the highs than HD650. Less warm on the mids. The differences are not that significant, imo on an mid game rig.
 
I know I preferred the HD600 and did let go the other, but there was the amp involved where HD600 just scaled up in a significant way this turn around whereas the HD650 just could not give anything else - a Jadis DA60 is no M-Stage.

 

[drdiem]

  drdiem,  just curios as what your HD800 serial number begins with.  Of all the reading I've done and finally taking the plunge to get one finally, I was left wondering where's the airy details and deep wide soundstage.  My unit begins with 30XXX.
 
I read other threads where the gist was the older 800's are more trebly and with details that are unforgiving and the newer ones are more smooth and less peaky on the upper end.  At least the one I have sounds very smooth with extended taut low end but my Fostex TH900 has more highs!  That and the airy presentation is slightly veiled.  Either that or I have a bad pair.
 
Just wondering anyone experience the same as I did on units with s/n 30XXX vs say a late 2012 unit?  I could have sworn that back then the set I was testing had the unforgiving upper end and lack bass to the point of being way too lean, however, the soundstage was much more spacious compared to the latest one.

 
Mine is 24XXX, and does have a small 6-7K hump. I don't particularly buy the whole 'old ones trebly, new ones smooth' thing. Sure there'll be tweaks and improvements during any product's lifetime but not significant enough to make such differences I don't think. In any case mine are relatively recent and they're certainly top-heavy, shall we say, though the bass is taut and well-defined (if not as deeply extended as an Audeze or HiFiMan). They also have a holographic soundstage and clinical detail in spades! It's possible you have a bad pair of course, but that seems unlikely.
 

   
I've gone through a number of HD600s and HD650s.  Great cans, but never my slice of cake.  I've had them with plenty of good/competent amps, but also will say there are some amps that have done utterly amazing things with them.  If you're looking for the HD650 with more treble, I'd prob. first look to maybe trying a HD600(?), and then explore other amps, sources, cables, etc., to get as opposed to trying to find a mythical can.
 
But based on your experience also with the HD800, I wonder if something like the Stax Omega 2 might be something you should try.  But like the HD650, it is, to my ears, dark, and needs the right equipment to remedy that as well as bring out everything they're capable of.
 
I doubt the AKG K701s or its ilk are going to satisfy you.  They're less dark than the HD650 but give up too much in terms of air, tone, texture, etc.  They're great all-round cans but I've always considered them jack of all trades and masters of none.  You're looking for a master-level headphone.
 
Good luck,
 
-Jason

 
Yeah, I'd like to hear the HD600 nonetheless, but I think I'll want 'more'.
 

  HD600 is more airy on the highs than HD650. Less warm on the mids. The differences are not that significant, imo on an mid game rig.
 
I know I preferred the HD600 and did let go the other, but there was the amp involved where HD600 just scaled up in a significant way this turn around whereas the HD650 just could not give anything else - a Jadis DA60 is no M-Stage.

 
Indeed not!! Perhaps I'll try an HD600 and sell whichever I like less out of it and my HD650. 

 

[Lorspeaker]

i am enjoying the hd650 right now, with a spc cable..on tube amps .