[ttorbic]

interesting thanks, so for your ears, moondrop aria has better staging, imaging, depth, and separation than s12 ? what are you powering your s12 with ?

I believe he is talking about Hifiman Arya, which is a full sized open back headphone.

 

[ttorbic]

You know my position on the Timeless, so let me give a bit more detail on the S12/Timeless comparison....

I've been listening now for about 2 hours or so with the S12 and Timeless. I'm trying to let the S12 break in a bit more, but honestly I don't hear any difference now compared to right out of the box. I know it's still very early, and I still intend to burn in the S12 tonight/tomorrow for quite a bit before I make any more real judgments.

I have tweaked my Timeless a bit, rolling through several cables and finally landing on what I consider a PERFECT match (8-core graphene + Symbio W tips), so it might be a bit unfair to compare the two directly. I'll set up one of my Timeless tomorrow with a stock cable and plain silicone tips to compare them both side-by-side right out of the box. But for now, let me just say that the Timeless are better tuned and more refined to my ears. Musicality, to me, is all about balance. With the "perfect" match of cable and tips with my Timeless, I hear incredible soundstage and perfectly balanced tonality, which creates a coherent stage and absolute pinpoint imaging. Nothing stands out or detracts from the overall presentation. The cymbals and hi-hats are only accompaniments, they aren't the main players. Same goes for the bass and sub-bass. They ONLY add color and texture, but are not the main melody or harmony. This is important, and is a major differentiator between my Timeless setup and essentially every other IEM I've heard so far. The note attack and decay are so tight as to separate all of the instruments/sounds so that I can hear each sound individually, even if they overlap. It doesn't sound as though I'm listening to headphones/IEMs or even speakers. The entire coherent musical presentation is just being beamed directly into my brain, if that makes sense. So, this is the Timeless for me.

Out of the box, the S12 appears more detailed, but lacks real bass impact and the mids also lack "oomph". The overall presentation just sounds a bit disjointed and thin, not nearly as coherent as my Timeless setup. At the $129 price that I paid for the S12, however, I think it's a really, really good deal and is a great introduction to the "planar sound". Very well done for LETSHUOER. But I will end my praise there, as I don't feel the S12 (out of the box) can compare with the refinement and coherence of the Timeless. And unfortunately, at this time I'm not really motivated to do much cable rolling on the S12 like I did for the Timeless. Tips, sure. I've already done a bit of tip rolling and honestly I find the stock clear silicones with the black cores to be very good indeed. But as I said, the tonality, presentation, and coherence aren't at the same level as Timeless. The treble is too forward, the mids aren't balanced enough, and the bass is too subdued. With the stock setup, I find there is almost no sub-bass to speak of. All together, the S12 sounds very detailed, but in reality isn't balanced enough to be really musical. As I mentioned before, the cymbals and hi-hats are too forward and pierce through the rest of the music, thereby taking center stage, which destroys the overall balance and breaks the coherence of the soundstage and imaging. These treble sounds can be a bit "tizzy" at times with the S12 and once they become "obvious" in the music, it tends to become a distraction, thereby ruining the overall experience.

Sigh, I see that I've babbled on too long again. But I hope some of what I've written will resonate with some folks and help people out. In summary, I think the S12 is a really, really nice piece of hardware and a good low-cost introduction for folks to planar IEMs. But in the end, the Timeless is more refined, balanced, and presents a more coherent sound that is just at a higher level than the S12. I will continue to evaluate and tweak the S12, because I think it may have more to offer. But for now, my opinion stands as stated. Thanks for reading and happy listening!

EDIT: For context, my setup is: Laptop/FLAC/Foobar2000 -> Unison USB -> Gungnir MB -> Burson Soloist 3X -> XLR->4.4mm balanced adapter -> (IEM)

I've tried several amps of varying power output and I've found that there is improvement to be heard even up to the Soloist at ~4-8 Watts into these planar IEMs. More power and better cables definitely affect their performance in a very positive way.

Thanks for your thoughts!

I'm confused about the sound staging of the Timeless - initially, almost everyone agreed that it had a wide but flat stage. Then, some started to say it has good or even incredible soundstage...even Akros in his review said he thinks the Timeless has a better soundstage than the S12, which directly contradicts what multiple people have said on HifiGuides. So yeah, colour me confused I say.

Maybe it's a version thing (Akros says two versions sound different), YMMV thing, or a. QC thing. I don't have the Timeless so it doesn't matter to me per se, but it does bother me that there's so much variation in opinions. I know this hobby is subjective, but sometimes I do want more consistency in evaluations.

I will receive my S12 on Wednesday, and will listen to it using my Qudelix with 3.5mm. I can put on a third party balanced cable to compare. I somewhat regret not buying the 4.4 version, mainly because the stock cable is so nice that I feel sad replacing it with a third party 2.5mm! @amanieux take note, maybe you wanna get the 4.4 and then an adapter so you can keep using this nice cable.

 

[amanieux]

Thanks for your thoughts!

I'm confused about the sound staging of the Timeless - initially, almost everyone agreed that it had a wide but flat stage. Then, some started to say it has good or even incredible soundstage...even Akros in his review said he thinks the Timeless has a better soundstage than the S12, which directly contradicts what multiple people have said on HifiGuides. So yeah, colour me confused I say.

Maybe it's a version thing (Akros says two versions sound different), YMMV thing, or a. QC thing. I don't have the Timeless so it doesn't matter to me per se, but it does bother me that there's so much variation in opinions. I know this hobby is subjective, but sometimes I do want more consistency in evaluations.

I will receive my S12 on Wednesday, and will listen to it using my Qudelix with 3.5mm. I can put on a third party balanced cable to compare. I somewhat regret not buying the 4.4 version, mainly because the stock cable is so nice that I feel sad replacing it with a third party 2.5mm! @amanieux take note, maybe you wanna get the 4.4 and then an adapter so you can keep using this nice cable.

i did get the 4.4mm version but dac with 4.4mm out are quite rare so i have a hard time picking up an affordable 4.4mm dac update : i ended up paying $10 for a 4.4 to 2.5mm adapter (what a ripoff, when you put "audio" in front of cables you can multiply hardware price by 3 or 4) and will use a used $70 btr5

 

[amanieux]

you are right it must be arya and not aria my mistake. i erased my post (still cannot delete a post, how unfortunate)

 

[Pylaczynski]

i did get the 4.4mm version but dac with 4.4mm out are quite rare so i have a hard time picking up an affordable 4.4mm dac, there are $10 2.5/4.4mm adapters on aliexpress if you want to keep using your stock 3.5mm cable on your qudelix 5k 2.5mm output. please keep us informed if you hear a difference on qudelix 5k between 3.5 and 2.5 output

Don't buy male 2,5mm to female 3,5mm adapters at all. 2,5mm balanced has separate minus signals for both left and right that you would short in this adapter potentially risking damage to the source

 

[amanieux]

Don't buy male 2,5mm to female 3,5mm adapters at all. 2,5mm balanced has separate minus signals for both left and right that you would short in this adapter potentially risking damage to the source

you are right it can only go the other way 3.5male SE to 2.5mm female BAL my mistake i removed it from my post. i must really get some sleep, my quest to understand s12 vs 7hz and powering source requirements kept me awake late these last 48h hours i will stop drowning this post with my questions until i receive my s12 and compare it with my other iems

 

[Pylaczynski]

dont these adapters leave the balanced L- and R- unconnected ? just putting R+ and L+ in the single ended R and L channels which halves the voltage but cause no harm to the balanced output circuit ?

I don't fully understand what do you mean putting R+ and L+ in the single ended R and L channels, but generally if you think of how 2,5mm jack is build it does not have common ground signal at all (opposed to grounded 4,4mm pentaconn). You don't want to short L+ and R+.
2,5mm has L+/L-/R+/R- signals.
3,5mm has only L/R/GND, so the only way to make 2,5mm to 3,5mm adapter is to potentially short minus signals, but since their potential would not be the same the least you would get is distorted sound, the worst - damaged circuit.

 

[amanieux]

I don't fully understand what do you mean putting R+ and L+ in the single ended R and L channels, but generally if you think of how 2,5mm jack is build it does not have common ground signal at all (opposed to grounded 4,4mm pentaconn). You don't want to short L+ and R+.
2,5mm has L+/L-/R+/R- signals.
3,5mm has only L/R/GND, so the only way to make 2,5mm to 3,5mm adapter is to potentially short minus signals, but since their potential would not be the same the least you would get is distorted sound, the worst - damaged circuit.

you are right the 2.5mm does not have gnd pin unlike 4.4mm my mistake as i just said i say too much nonsense right now i need to sleep and come back in a week to share my impression of my s12 compared to my fh3 that is at the same price ( i hope s12 will be an upgrade to fh3 even from my underpowered $10 apple dongle dac)

 

[Alex Ulrik]

I don't want to start any controversy here or affront personal beliefs, but seeing some people getting confused about power requirements I would like to offer an alternative perspective, this Crinacle article that happens to share my view on the matter: https://crinacle.com/2019/09/30/on-the-record-power/
With that said, it means that no iem needs much power and the S12 at 16ohms will be getting very little of the max output people are mentioning here.
That doesn't deny any audible differences between sources, but that's not related to power, but to a series of factors that can influence sound like impedance, distortion or dac tonality, most people call that interaction source synergy. It means that, unrelated to power, some sources can sound subjectively better because it changes something that aligns with your personal preferences, not necessarily making it better or supposedly revealing the true potential of the transducer. It could add warmth to a dry iem, for example, as a result of distortion introduced by something like tube amps, which doesn't mean it's a better source objectively.

 

[mathe0]

Give me like a few days to get mine and I will have in depth comparisons to the Hana 2021 which has has been my daily driver for the last month+.

I'm debating on getting the Hana 2021 or the S12 (or maybe the upcoming Olina). Very interested in your in depth comparisons between the Hana 2021 and the S12!

 

[BokTroy]

I'm debating on getting the Hana 2021 or the S12 (or maybe the upcoming Olina). Very interested in your in depth comparisons between the Hana 2021 and the S12!

I'm looking forward to giving all you guys comparisons. I thought I would of had mine by now but I think shipping delays have hit my area pretty hard. I will say though the s12 has some stiff competition with the Hana 2021. They just do so many things right.

 

[dharmasteve]

Gotta say as I get more time on the S12 the bass is developing. I use them with L Spiral Dots which have a good bulb volume size. The bass pumps, but it is more than just impact. I definitely prefer strong bass in my IEMs and the large planar driver gives the bass in spades, with texture and atmosphere. I think the 14.8mm driver gives an very impressive bass performance. Some IEMs it's hard to listen at good volume but I find I can listen to these at high gain and good volume. I'm really happy with the S12.

 

[Musicoflife]

You know my position on the Timeless, so let me give a bit more detail on the S12/Timeless comparison....

I've been listening now for about 2 hours or so with the S12 and Timeless. I'm trying to let the S12 break in a bit more, but honestly I don't hear any difference now compared to right out of the box. I know it's still very early, and I still intend to burn in the S12 tonight/tomorrow for quite a bit before I make any more real judgments.

I have tweaked my Timeless a bit, rolling through several cables and finally landing on what I consider a PERFECT match (8-core graphene + Symbio W tips), so it might be a bit unfair to compare the two directly. I'll set up one of my Timeless tomorrow with a stock cable and plain silicone tips to compare them both side-by-side right out of the box. But for now, let me just say that the Timeless are better tuned and more refined to my ears. Musicality, to me, is all about balance. With the "perfect" match of cable and tips with my Timeless, I hear incredible soundstage and perfectly balanced tonality, which creates a coherent stage and absolute pinpoint imaging. Nothing stands out or detracts from the overall presentation. The cymbals and hi-hats are only accompaniments, they aren't the main players. Same goes for the bass and sub-bass. They ONLY add color and texture, but are not the main melody or harmony. This is important, and is a major differentiator between my Timeless setup and essentially every other IEM I've heard so far. The note attack and decay are so tight as to separate all of the instruments/sounds so that I can hear each sound individually, even if they overlap. It doesn't sound as though I'm listening to headphones/IEMs or even speakers. The entire coherent musical presentation is just being beamed directly into my brain, if that makes sense. So, this is the Timeless for me.

Out of the box, the S12 appears more detailed, but lacks real bass impact and the mids also lack "oomph". The overall presentation just sounds a bit disjointed and thin, not nearly as coherent as my Timeless setup. At the $129 price that I paid for the S12, however, I think it's a really, really good deal and is a great introduction to the "planar sound". Very well done for LETSHUOER. But I will end my praise there, as I don't feel the S12 (out of the box) can compare with the refinement and coherence of the Timeless. And unfortunately, at this time I'm not really motivated to do much cable rolling on the S12 like I did for the Timeless. Tips, sure. I've already done a bit of tip rolling and honestly I find the stock clear silicones with the black cores to be very good indeed. But as I said, the tonality, presentation, and coherence aren't at the same level as Timeless. The treble is too forward, the mids aren't balanced enough, and the bass is too subdued. With the stock setup, I find there is almost no sub-bass to speak of. All together, the S12 sounds very detailed, but in reality isn't balanced enough to be really musical. As I mentioned before, the cymbals and hi-hats are too forward and pierce through the rest of the music, thereby taking center stage, which destroys the overall balance and breaks the coherence of the soundstage and imaging. These treble sounds can be a bit "tizzy" at times with the S12 and once they become "obvious" in the music, it tends to become a distraction, thereby ruining the overall experience.

Sigh, I see that I've babbled on too long again. But I hope some of what I've written will resonate with some folks and help people out. In summary, I think the S12 is a really, really nice piece of hardware and a good low-cost introduction for folks to planar IEMs. But in the end, the Timeless is more refined, balanced, and presents a more coherent sound that is just at a higher level than the S12. I will continue to evaluate and tweak the S12, because I think it may have more to offer. But for now, my opinion stands as stated. Thanks for reading and happy listening!

EDIT: For context, my setup is: Laptop/FLAC/Foobar2000 -> Unison USB -> Gungnir MB -> Burson Soloist 3X -> XLR->4.4mm balanced adapter -> (IEM)

I've tried several amps of varying power output and I've found that there is improvement to be heard even up to the Soloist at ~4-8 Watts into these planar IEMs. More power and better cables definitely affect their performance in a very positive way.

Just a caution for Xinhs Graphene 8 owners: the cable is relatively thick, stiff and heavy. There is a slight bit of play at the neck of the mmcx housing and no visible stress relief there. While tip rolling, one channel mysteriously grew softer in volume for me. Turns out the connections had shorted at the L+ and L- of my 2.5mm cable at that end. Luckily this didn't blow my Qudelix (shorting protection?!)

Alerted Xinhs about this weakness in construction and the need for stress relief at the connector. He was nice enough to send me a replacement. So. Handle this cable with care.

 

[Syracuse]

I just ordered them as well. I'm going to use them with a Soncoz SGA-1 and VMV D1se. Using the IE 900 for months now, needed a change. Hopefully they'll match my gear.

 

[blorg]

Thanks for the Heads Up on this. Where can we we find details on this deal for $129 in exchange for a post? How does one gain access to that discount once the post is out? Thanks

The details are linked from the purchase page:

We heard you guys want an encore for the Early Bird and the New Year Sales of our new products.

Here you have it.

From now until 8th Feb, share a post with the image below on either your FACEBOOK or INSTAGRAM for two or more days (make sure to set permission to public ), send your post or profile link to us at hi@letshuoer.net and you will get a coupon code for enjoying the early bird price of S12/DT02 or get 15% off the rest of the store.

Post content must be exactly: [ I WANT IT @letshuoer + Below photo].

https://www.facebook.com/letshuoer/posts/979684769571574
https://letshuoer.net/product/iem/s12-hi-fi-earphones-in-ear-monitors/