[dharmasteve]

I have noticed in true Planar style, as I turn the volume up in high gain 4.4mm balanced on my HiBy R5, unlike most IEMs, the S12 soaks up the volume and doesn't just get madly loud. It seems to thrive on the added power and the whole FR response responds with quality bass, mids and treble. Even though they are sensitive, unlike other 16 ohm IEMs that I have at 30 steps of volume, I have the S12 at 44 steps even though they are 16 ohms, and boy do they sing. At £100 these sing way above their place on the hierarchical price point. They do break in over time though, so patience is a virtue. It's clear that Shuoer can only make these in small batches, but they have hit the 'mother load'. I am impressed. If you want to hear drum skins and nuanced bass, full mids and great treble thickness of notes....these are your boys.

 

[amanieux]

I don't want to start any controversy here or affront personal beliefs, but seeing some people getting confused about power requirements I would like to offer an alternative perspective, this Crinacle article that happens to share my view on the matter: https://crinacle.com/2019/09/30/on-the-record-power/
With that said, it means that no iem needs much power and the S12 at 16ohms will be getting very little of the max output people are mentioning here.
That doesn't deny any audible differences between sources, but that's not related to power, but to a series of factors that can influence sound like impedance, distortion or dac tonality, most people call that interaction source synergy. It means that, unrelated to power, some sources can sound subjectively better because it changes something that aligns with your personal preferences, not necessarily making it better or supposedly revealing the true potential of the transducer. It could add warmth to a dry iem, for example, as a result of distortion introduced by something like tube amps, which doesn't mean it's a better source objectively.

as soon at i get it, i will compare my s12 powered by my $10 apple dongle (31mw) vs a btr5(240mw) and return here to give my average joe impressions ( 55 yo untrained ears + i listen only to mp3). my previous dac comparison was 2015 phone internal dac vs $40 meizu hifi pro with bqeyz spring1 and i the difference was noticeable in a/b short burst critical listening but indinstinguishable when i do casual listening with one or the other so i resold the meizu dac. why drain my phone battery and add bulk in my pocket, i reinvested these $ in a better iem which is much more noticeable than this dac upgrade. so let's see if planar makes a bigger difference in a/b testing dacs

 

[blorg]

as soon at i get it, i will compare my s12 powered by my $10 apple dongle (31mw) vs a btr5(240mw) and return here to give my average joe impressions ( 55 yo untrained ears + i listen only to mp3). my previous dac comparison was 2015 phone internal dac vs $40 meizu hifi pro with bqeyz spring1 and i the difference was noticeable in a/b short burst critical listening but indinstinguishable when i do casual listening with one or the other so i resold the meizu dac. why drain my phone battery and add bulk in my pocket, i reinvested these $ in a better iem which is much more noticeable than this dac upgrade. so let's see if planar makes a bigger difference in a/b testing dacs

Try with low bass (40Hz) sine wave and the Bass Shaker test from Audiocheck.net, I think low bass is where you are most likely to hear distortion first if a planar is under-powered. I'd guess there's a good chance the Apple Dongle will power it though at reasonable listening volumes. The BTR5 certainly will. You'll need a balanced cable with the BTR5 to get the higher power, it's 80mW out of the SE. Also try low gain vs high gain modes on the BTR5, I think low gain is half the power of high gain.

 

[mmkzero]

The S12 is rated for 102dB +-1db @1khz and has an Impedance of 16Ohms @1khz (which should be flat across the frequency band since planar drivers usually are).

The Apple Dongle outputs 31mW @ 33Ohms, so it should be able to sufficiently power the S12.

 

[amanieux]

Try with low bass (40Hz) sine wave and the Bass Shaker test from Audiocheck.net, I think low bass is where you are most likely to hear distortion first if a planar is under-powered. I'd guess there's a good chance the Apple Dongle will power it though at reasonable listening volumes. The BTR5 certainly will. You'll need a balanced cable with the BTR5 to get the higher power, it's 80mW out of the SE. Also try low gain vs high gain modes on the BTR5, I think low gain is half the power of high gain.

sure i will also compare SE low gain vs BAL high gain on btr5 at same casual listening level to see if power in itself makes a difference, i will try blind testing also it will be fun

 

[Alex Ulrik]

as soon at i get it, i will compare my s12 powered by my $10 apple dongle (31mw) vs a btr5(240mw) and return here to give my average joe impressions ( 55 yo untrained ears + i listen only to mp3). my previous dac comparison was 2015 phone internal dac vs $40 meizu hifi pro with bqeyz spring1 and i the difference was noticeable in a/b short burst critical listening but indinstinguishable when i do casual listening with one or the other so i resold the meizu dac. why drain my phone battery and add bulk in my pocket, i reinvested these $ in a better iem which is much more noticeable than this dac upgrade. so let's see if planar makes a bigger difference in a/b testing dacs

I'm pretty sure you'll be happy with the BTR5, it's pratical with bluetooth, won't drain your phone battery, powerful enough even for high impedance headphones and most people seems to prefer it's warmer signature compared to the Apple dongle.
Just stay away from onboard sound from laptops/phones (current MacBooks may be an exception), even when they have enough power, they're just not transparent and fail at every factor I mentioned:

Impedance: high output impedance skewing frequency response of iems around 16ohms, breaking the 1/8th damping factor (planars usually have flat impedance though)
Distortion: all kinds of distortion above the audibility threshold, noise takes away resolution and crosstalk flattens soundstage
Dac tonality: can't reproduce the full frequency spectrum at the same level, usually lacking bass and/or treble extension. Sub-bass roll off makes low end weaker, treble roll off loses detail and soundstage.

Don't forget to volume match when making comparisons, our frequency response perception changes from lower to higher intensity (see Fletcher–Munson curves).
A transparent source will have none of these issues, power should be the least of your worries as it's immediately noticeable, you just won't get enough volume.

 

[blorg]

Low impedance planars will get volume but will run out of current if underpowered which results in distortion. They typically will distort before they run out of volume, as the amp will be able to supply the voltage (volume) but will not have the current/power and so will clip. Qudelix (same DAC and very similar specs to the BTR5) goes over this:

5K 3.5mm Single DAC can deliver the output power up to 80mWatt, while 2.5mm Dual DAC up to 240mWatt. For the low impedance unit, the current saturation occurs before reaching the maximum volume level. Please note that even in the current saturation, the DAC and HW are all safe, but you will get the output signal saturated and clipped.

https://www.qudelix.com/blogs/5k-dac-amp/power-budget

High impedance headphones just won't get loud because the limit there is voltage, not current. They require higher voltages to get loud, but the BTR5 tops out at 1.8-2.8V. Something like the Apple dongle is 0.5-1V (EU/US version). High impedance over-ears, they don't clip, they just don't go loud enough. But that doesn't hold for low impedance planars.

I don't think these will clip on the BTR5 at any reasonable listening level, I think it will have more than enough power. Just that it isn't a matter of "won't go loud enough", it will go very loud, but at the highest (unsafe) listening levels, it will clip. This is easy to demonstrate with less sensitive over-ear planars, on under-powered sources, they do go loud, but the amp starts to clip. High impedance headphones like my R70X (470 ohm) don't, they just "don't get loud" on under-powered sources (relatively- it gets plenty loud on the BTR5/Qudelix balanced in high gain mode).

Sensitivity is the other side of the equation, if that is 102dB/mW (not clear if it's that or dB/V) while it would be possible to push them to clipping on the BTR5, it wouldn't be at a safe listening level.

 

[firesign]

Another here who has fallen and has ordered some S12. Although I ordered them 3 days ago and they still haven't been sent to me, I don't know if they will have stock problems.

Wishing to compare them with the Timeless, which for me lacks some joy in the treble area.

 

[Alex Ulrik]

Low impedance planars will get volume but will run out of current if underpowered which results in distortion. They typically will distort before they run out of volume, as the amp will be able to supply the voltage (volume) but will not have the current/power and so will clip. Qudelix (same DAC and very similar specs to the BTR5) goes over this:



https://www.qudelix.com/blogs/5k-dac-amp/power-budget

High impedance headphones just won't get loud because the limit there is voltage, not current. They require higher voltages to get loud, but the BTR5 tops out at 1.8-2.8V. Something like the Apple dongle is 0.5-1V (EU/US version). High impedance over-ears, they don't clip, they just don't go loud enough. But that doesn't hold for low impedance planars.

I don't think these will clip on the BTR5 at any reasonable listening level, I think it will have more than enough power. Just that it isn't a matter of "won't go loud enough", it will go very loud, but at the highest (unsafe) listening levels, it will clip. This is easy to demonstrate with less sensitive over-ear planars, on under-powered sources, they do go loud, but the amp starts to clip. High impedance headphones like my R70X (470 ohm) don't, they just "don't get loud" on under-powered sources (relatively- it gets plenty loud on the BTR5/Qudelix balanced in high gain mode).

Sensitivity is the other side of the equation, if that is 102dB/mW (not clear if it's that or dB/V) while it would be possible to push them to clipping on the BTR5, it wouldn't be at a safe listening level.

The Apple dongle don't clip, as expected of Apple they just won't let you get distortion and cut power before. The volume alone will tell if it's powerful enough.

 

[blorg]

Another here who has fallen and has ordered some S12. Although I ordered them 3 days ago and they still haven't been sent to me, I don't know if they will have stock problems.

Wishing to compare them with the Timeless, which for me lacks some joy in the treble area.

There was mention that they are out of the grey ones until 8 February.

This seems to have more treble than the Timeless.

https://hbb.squig.link/?share=Bad_Guy_Target,7Hz_Planar,Shuoer_S12
https://precog.squig.link/?share=Precog_Target,Shuoer_S12,7Hz_Timeless

 

[firesign]

There was mention that they are out of the grey ones until 8 February.

This seems to have more treble than the Timeless.

https://hbb.squig.link/?share=Bad_Guy_Target,7Hz_Planar,Shuoer_S12
https://precog.squig.link/?share=Precog_Target,Shuoer_S12,7Hz_Timeless

8 February is just in the middle of the Chinese new year celebration...

 

[ttorbic]

Another here who has fallen and has ordered some S12. Although I ordered them 3 days ago and they still haven't been sent to me, I don't know if they will have stock problems.

Wishing to compare them with the Timeless, which for me lacks some joy in the treble area.

I waited for three days before asking their customer rep Joseph on the LETSHUOER FB page to send me my tracking info. Maybe you should reach out too

 

[amanieux]

power should be the least of your worries as it's immediately noticeable, you just won't get enough volume.

yes low volume is easy to notice but for s12 that is new i have no reference point if my dac miss some bass due to lack of power i may think it is the s12 that has poor bass ?

Low impedance planars will get volume but will run out of current if underpowered which results in distortion. They typically will distort before they run out of volume, as the amp will be able to supply the voltage (volume) but will not have the current/power and so will clip. Qudelix (same DAC and very similar specs to the BTR5) goes over this:



https://www.qudelix.com/blogs/5k-dac-amp/power-budget

High impedance headphones just won't get loud because the limit there is voltage, not current. They require higher voltages to get loud, but the BTR5 tops out at 1.8-2.8V. Something like the Apple dongle is 0.5-1V (EU/US version). High impedance over-ears, they don't clip, they just don't go loud enough. But that doesn't hold for low impedance planars.

I don't think these will clip on the BTR5 at any reasonable listening level, I think it will have more than enough power. Just that it isn't a matter of "won't go loud enough", it will go very loud, but at the highest (unsafe) listening levels, it will clip. This is easy to demonstrate with less sensitive over-ear planars, on under-powered sources, they do go loud, but the amp starts to clip. High impedance headphones like my R70X (470 ohm) don't, they just "don't get loud" on under-powered sources (relatively- it gets plenty loud on the BTR5/Qudelix balanced in high gain mode).

Sensitivity is the other side of the equation, if that is 102dB/mW (not clear if it's that or dB/V) while it would be possible to push them to clipping on the BTR5, it wouldn't be at a safe listening level.

when i'll a/b compare apple dongle vs btr5, (assuming they match similar volume) what clues for "current saturation" must i look for ? what does clipping sound like ?

 

[Alex Ulrik]

yes low volume is easy to notice but for s12 that is new i have no reference point if my dac miss some bass due to lack pf power i may think it is the s12 that has poor ?
when i'll a/b compare apple dongle vs btr5, (assuming they match similar volume) what clues for "current saturation" must i look for ? what does clipping sound like ?

You'll only have lower bass if the dac have issues with the 3 factors I mentioned previously, which aren't related to power output, but to transparency. Bad dacs can also increase bass by the way. If you're listening at the same volume the Apple dongle and BTR5 (both at 3.5mm and balanced) will be pushing the same amount of power. Any differences you hear won't be because of power. Let's say you have a dongle with 30mw max @16ohm and compare to a dac with 1050mw max @16ohm, at the exact same volume both will provide only 3mw for example. The maximum output power is not used.

You shouldn't worry about clipping on neither.

 

[blorg]

yes low volume is easy to notice but for s12 that is new i have no reference point if my dac miss some bass due to lack of power i may think it is the s12 that has poor bass ?
when i'll a/b compare apple dongle vs btr5, (assuming they match similar volume) what clues for "current saturation" must i look for ? what does clipping sound like ?

Clipping is when the tops of the waveform are squared off. There's an example here, although this is extreme:



It tends to happen first in the lower bass frequencies as there is more energy there.

I don't think it's likely you would get this with the Apple dongle, with an IEM. And certainly not with the BTR5. It is a possibility with less sensitive over-ear planars, full size headphones like Hifiman, they need a lot more power than an IEM does.