[sokolov91]

So I have done some quick searching here on head-fi about neutrality, or balanced sounding headphones.

Seems like there are many people who are after headphones that sound like this, but a lot of people seem to suggest, at least in the past, Sennheiser HD 600, or AKG K702.

After listening to a lot high quality, "bass heavy" music, it is obviously many headphones touted as neutral or balanced have really hard times holding bass notes properly. I'm talking 30-60hz. If a headphone can do this properly it isn't that intrusive, and sounds great.

My question is this: How do you actually determine neutrality? And is neutrality/how is neutrality influenced by how humans hear?

I am guessing the most accurate headphone would have an absolutely flat response around 0 DB? But surely there is more to it that that... but I also wonder why headphones with no bass are considered neutral.

I can understand a lot of people don't like bass, as it is often perceived as getting in the way of the rest of the spectrum... but thats hardly balanced now is it.

If you use foobar2000, and are looking at the spectrum meter, a lot of time the bass db is much higher than the rest of the spectrum, yet it is quieter when using "neutral" headphones, or the sound somehow doesn't sound bass-heavy. Is this purely to do with how fast the frequencies are?

I want to avoid opinions here really...

 

[jp_zer0]

I think with headphones you're forced to appreciate bass as mere musical notes. Not some physical effect of rumbling.

It takes some getting used to, but does it make the experience pure? Maybe, I'm not sure.

 

[nikongod]

This belongs in the 'scope jockey's forum.

 

[lejaz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sokolov91 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I want to avoid opinions here really...

I think you came to the wrong place!

I'm interested in the bass issue too, but I don't think you'll find pure objectivity anywhere....I think I'll subscribe anyway.

 

[TheWuss]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jp_zer0 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think with headphones you're forced to appreciate bass as mere musical notes.

i think jp_zer0 is right there. if you are used to the way speakers (woofers) present bass, and especially if you are used to feeling bass, then "more neutral" headphones will take some getting used to.

 

[Beagle]

IMO neutrality in a headphone would be where a person with measured golden ears would seem to perceive an even frequency balance throughout the audible range. Good luck.

 

[sokolov91]

I agree a lot of lower frequencies are felt just as much as they are heard with speakers, but with proper amping, and some decent headphones, you get some nice punch going on... so thats not really my issue... it's more bass light being considered neutral. Take K702.. people love the damned things (or hate i guess) but they are hardly balanced to my ears, and I have tested with various tracks... So I am not claiming my hearing is golden, but with a visual aid like a spectrum graph and my ears, they are not balanced at all.

 

[wali]

If you think K702/01 is not balanced than there is something wrong with your source/amp/recordings.

 

[k3oxkjo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sokolov91 /img/forum/go_quote.gif My question is this: How do you actually determine neutrality? And is neutrality/how is neutrality influenced by how humans hear? I am guessing the most accurate headphone would have an absolutely flat response around 0 DB? But surely there is more to it that that... but I also wonder why headphones with no bass are considered neutral. I can understand a lot of people don't like bass, as it is often perceived as getting in the way of the rest of the spectrum... but thats hardly balanced now is it. If you use foobar2000, and are looking at the spectrum meter, a lot of time the bass db is much higher than the rest of the spectrum, yet it is quieter when using "neutral" headphones, or the sound somehow doesn't sound bass-heavy. Is this purely to do with how fast the frequencies are? I want to avoid opinions here really...

This is quite a complex subject, but just one quick thing.

The increase you see in the Foobar spectrum meter in the bass is countered by the fact that the ear is less sensitive as you start to go below 500 cycles. This can be seen in a plot of the "Equal Loudness Curves" (formally Fletcher-Munson curves). So the bass should roughly be perceived as equal to the rest of the spectrum (unless, of course, hyped up bass was an artistic decision in the production of the recording).

Kevin

 

[sokolov91]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wali /img/forum/go_quote.gif If you think K702/01 is not balanced than there is something wrong with your source/amp/recordings.

No. I have tried repeatedly on many sources, different amps and with different people. There is nothing wrong with my source or amp, or recordings either, and recordings are independent variables, they don't change when the rest of the equipment does.

 

[sokolov91]

Quote:

Originally Posted by k3oxkjo /img/forum/go_quote.gif This is quite a complex subject, but just one quick thing. The increase you see in the Foobar spectrum meter in the bass is countered by the fact that the ear is less sensitive as you start to go below 500 cycles. This can be seen in a plot of the "Equal Loudness Curves" (formally Fletcher-Munson curves). So the bass should roughly be perceived as equal to the rest of the spectrum (unless, of course, hyped up bass was an artistic decision in the production of the recording). Kevin

Many thanks, this is the kind of stuff I am wondering about.

 

[Mad Max]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beagle /img/forum/go_quote.gif IMO neutrality in a headphone would be where a person with measured golden ears would seem to perceive an even frequency balance throughout the audible range. Good luck.

Wouldn't that be only neutral balance? Also, I don't think you need golden ears for that. Then there's the issue of other people not hearing the same thing.

I think neutral would be a relatively colorless sound? May not have the flattest FR, I think. I do love what sounds to me like a flat FR, though. When the frequencies align with each other real nice like that, the sound feels like a smooth wall. No audible dips or anything from at least midbass to the upper highs, more or less. I first heard this with a pair of Mackie MR5's I heard at a local store. It was in a nice open area that I guess minimized/cancelled out resonances or whatever. I guess a colored sound would be like my SR325is; however, I have no idea how to put what I hear in those 'phones into words. It is a unique mix of colors, I guess. My A2000X had what sounded like a flat FR to me, but tipped towards the highs. This was only at first, after much burn-in, it no longer sounds like that but I still love it though. The sound is still mostly colorless throughout its liquid-smooth bass and mids.

 

[oqvist]

Controversy of bass is quite simple... the brain is extremely agile to adjust to bass. Take DX 1000 it´s just right... Then go to the ED 8 oh god no bass, bass is broken

...

then the other day start with Ed 8... Plenty bass maybe even a slight boost down there... Go to DX 1000, bass monster overshadowing MIDS... *******it.

But in term of sub bass to 30-60 the bass rolloff can be quite severr for many people here. I surely have a significant roll off at 20 hertz. No problem hear it but its not near the same volume as 30 hertz. Some thus get more bass then others... Heck some days my ear get no bass and other times just bass!

As for bass punch. You don´t want that for classical it ruins the flow of the music. It´s mostly classical listeners that hate bass. I do enjoy the DX 1000 but it does have really soft and layered bass so they really don´t punch unless really called for. they do fart with trumpets and such in just the right places though

KeeS modded Pro 900 works excellent as well except slightly to much low bass at times. Make up for most with their killer mid range though.

As for K701 maybe it´s neutral but it doesn´t sound natural with so little mid bass even for classical music. But then I was sitting in the brass section of my orchestra so I guess my preferences are coloured toward brass

...

 

[wali]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sokolov91 /img/forum/go_quote.gif No. I have tried repeatedly on many sources, different amps and with different people. There is nothing wrong with my source or amp, or recordings either, and recordings are independent variables, they don't change when the rest of the equipment does.

Let me get this straight, this is your question in your topic post:

Quote:

My question is this: How do you actually determine neutrality? And is neutrality/how is neutrality influenced by how humans hear?

So, when you don't know how to determine neutrality then how come you posted this when i asked about your audio chain?

Quote:

There is nothing wrong with my source or amp, or recordings either, and recordings are independent variables, they don't change when the rest of the equipment does.

Anyway, back to your topic.

 

[bhanja_trinanjan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sokolov91 /img/forum/go_quote.gif No. I have tried repeatedly on many sources, different amps and with different people. There is nothing wrong with my source or amp, or recordings either, and recordings are independent variables, they don't change when the rest of the equipment does.

Here we go again!