Let's dicuss idiotic audiophile concepts from a sound engineering perspective! Idiotic mischaracterizations in accuracy, soundstage, separation, detail, timing, and more!
Jan 23, 2022 at 11:17 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 23

grapefruit

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I am a systems neuroscientist who moonlights as a sound engineer in an established studio for fun + cash.

Everything I present below is standard knowledge for sound engineers, but applied to audiophile topics. I encourage other sound engineers to weigh in. I hope to undercut popular descriptors we use and propose we revise how we talk about gear. In doing so we can fully realize which vendors are doing good work and which are actually producing very dishonest sound.

I will just touch on a small bit, and if this gets traction, I will continue with other concepts and maybe include some sound demonstrations.

Point 1: True neutral (and harman neutral) sounds like crap.
All the rich detailed information captured is imperceptible by audiophile standards and must be brutalized into existence. Don't believe me? Bring an omnidirectional calibration mic to a sound deadened room and listen.

Point 2: Natural dynamic range, which far outstrips sound and reproduction formats, sounds like crap
A "natural," "well mastered" record will be around 0.00004x as dynamic as how it actually sounds. Just like how looking at a screen, no matter how hi res, will never appear like looking through a window because no backlight is as bright as the sun.

Point 3: The stronger the sound signature, the worse the accuracy and fidelity.
This is not a hot take but it is somehow not appreciated at the forefront of peoples minds. In terms of neutrality and accuracy, most music out there has a pretty offensively mangled sound signature simply because putting sounds together on a record is extremely difficult. Gear that imparts clarity and neutrality onto everything is lying to you point blank.

Thus "neutral precise accurate sound" among hi quality gear is a generous ****-on of all fidelity.
The ER-4s is a great example.


The mainstream standard of accuracy. It's been a favorite of mine for over a decade long before I knew anything about sound. I know how it sounds by heart: a loss of mud and sibilance, a locked-in forwardness of sound and separation, complemented with heaps of detail you never heard before.

Turns out you can produce a signal chain to etymotic-ify anything. Audiophiles probably think it's eq. It aint.

It starts with removing dynamic range. You will notice that etymotics have little impact. That's because all louder things are "pushed down" to a somewhat equivalent level to quiet sounds. This has the psychoacoustic effect of bringing things forward, solidifying them, and heightening detail. By tuning the enclosure, you can selectively compress and eliminate different parts of the sound spectrum. Etymotic is brutally good at removing sibiliant frequencies without losing air.

Then comes the clear, airy, nonsibilant highs. To remove sibilance regardless of source material, you cut the 6-8khz range down, or potentially eliminate small chunks of it completely (called notch filtering). Then you prevent sound in that region from moving up or down in loudness through compression—and the way speaker designers do so is pretty unforgivable.

Third is exaggerating resonances and smearing timing to "tune"
So how are frequencies selectively cut (voluntarily or involuntarily) without an EQ? Next to driver selection, the most common way is manipulating the enclosure such that there is a partial delay in the sounds that are reintroduced before the complete sound exits. By introducing pipe resonances in the 6-8k range of the delayed signal, when you add it back to the exiting soundwave, it will attenuate that 6-8k range also prevent it from rising no matter how loud the sound is.

Essentially, all enclosure tuning introduces gross delays in timing and resonances, which manufacturers market as "neutral."

Altogether, I'd like to invite people to talk more about compression and understand how ****ed up our favorite gear is. Next I will update with additional info on sweetness, PRaT, soundstage, and separation.

Jeez. I feel better. Would like to hear your thoughts?
 
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Jan 23, 2022 at 11:56 AM Post #2 of 23
I think you are making this way too hard. Just listen to the music and enjoy.
 
Jan 24, 2022 at 3:43 AM Post #3 of 23
I think your ideas are all over the place grapefruit. You give me an impression that you want IEMs to be designed so that they turn crappy recordings into bliss. Am I wrong? Wouldn't it be more convenient to have really well produced, mixed and mastered recordings reproduced with neutral gear that adds nothing or take away nothing?

I listen to music from "DR6 pop" to classical music with almost 10 times bigger dynamic range. So what?
 
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Jan 24, 2022 at 3:33 PM Post #4 of 23
I have no idea what you're talking about. Nice rant though.
 
Jan 24, 2022 at 3:55 PM Post #5 of 23
Edit:
 
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Jan 24, 2022 at 4:48 PM Post #6 of 23
lots of thought, way above my pay grade
 
Jan 24, 2022 at 5:14 PM Post #7 of 23
download.jpeg
 
Jan 24, 2022 at 5:43 PM Post #8 of 23
^ Lol.

I think there might be some very valid and interesting points in here but I am finding it hard to comprehend. Maybe I'm just not that bright (most likely the case). I am trying though. I'll post back if I can get a decent thought together.
 
Jan 24, 2022 at 10:58 PM Post #9 of 23
Point 1: True neutral (and harman neutral) sounds like crap.
All the rich detailed information captured is imperceptible by audiophile standards and must be brutalized into existence. Don't believe me? Bring an omnidirectional calibration mic to a sound deadened room and listen.



Point 1: True neutral/Harman neutral will always be only a guesstimate. And that is OK. Reason being is no one can ever all agree on a curve. Besides the curve there are three graphs/responses anyway.

1) the measured response
2) the true response
3) the response the person individually hears


Point 2: Natural dynamic range, which far outstrips sound and reproduction formats, sounds like crap
A "natural," "well mastered" record will be around 0.00004x as dynamic as how it actually sounds. Just like how looking at a screen, no matter how hi res, will never appear like looking through a window because no backlight is as bright as the sun.

Right. The musical event is lost in time. It can’t ever be replicated even though we pride ourselves in the ability to do so. I agree with this statement. Though music reproduction has had a place, much like photographic evidence of real life.



Point 3: The stronger the sound signature, the worse the accuracy and fidelity.
This is not a hot take but it is somehow not appreciated at the forefront of peoples minds. In terms of neutrality and accuracy, most music out there has a pretty offensively mangled sound signature simply because putting sounds together on a record is extremely difficult. Gear that imparts clarity and neutrality onto everything is lying to you point blank.

Thus "neutral precise accurate sound" among hi quality gear is a generous ****-on of all fidelity.
The ER-4s is a great example.

The mainstream standard of accuracy. It's been a favorite of mine for over a decade long before I knew anything about sound. I know how it sounds by heart: a loss of mud and sibilance, a locked-in forwardness of sound and separation, complemented with heaps of detail you never heard before.

Turns out you can produce a signal chain to etymotic-ify anything. Audiophiles probably think it's eq. It aint.

It starts with removing dynamic range. You will notice that etymotics have little impact. That's because all louder things are "pushed down" to a somewhat equivalent level to quiet sounds. This has the psychoacoustic effect of bringing things forward, solidifying them, and heightening detail. By tuning the enclosure, you can selectively compress and eliminate different parts of the sound spectrum. Etymotic is brutally good at removing sibiliant frequencies without losing air.

Then comes the clear, airy, nonsibilant highs. To remove sibilance regardless of source material, you cut the 6-8khz range down, or potentially eliminate small chunks of it completely (called notch filtering). Then you prevent sound in that region from moving up or down in loudness through compression—and the way speaker designers do so is pretty unforgivable.

Third is exaggerating resonances and smearing timing to "tune"
So how are frequencies selectively cut (voluntarily or involuntarily) without an EQ? Next to driver selection, the most common way is manipulating the enclosure such that there is a partial delay in the sounds that are reintroduced before the complete sound exits. By introducing pipe resonances in the 6-8k range of the delayed signal, when you add it back to the exiting soundwave, it will attenuate that 6-8k range also prevent it from rising no matter how loud the sound is.

Essentially, all enclosure tuning introduces gross delays in timing and resonances, which manufacturers market as "neutral."

Altogether, I'd like to invite people to talk more about compression and understand how ****ed up our favorite gear is. Next I will update with additional info on sweetness, PRaT, soundstage, and separation.

Jeez. I feel better. Would like to hear your thoughts?


Point 3 etc, etc:
I agree that compression bestows a limited range in a effort to encapsulate the entire musical experience. Still your not showing any further technique or methodology for improvement...........nor are you listing your education or studio of employment.

The fact is again that there is no true standardized studio methodology to give a baseline. Hence we are all over the road in recoding as well as playback. All we can hope for is entertainment, the actual musical event has been lost in time.... forever. But at times multiple tracks are put together to create a new sonic experience which is greater than the single recorded event.

It is what is is. And considering anything before this never existed in the first place. Thus before recorded modern music all we had was live playback.

All of us could question the response of even the best playback and wonder if it sounded real or not. Though there are great moments where all the aspects come together and we are gifted with a rewarding experience. Sadly I believe money is the determining factor in reference to ............obtaining of such an experience. Not always a lot of money, but it helps! Meaning that level of playback takes bucks normally, and the folks that disagree are delusional! IMO

Also it’s down to what you are trying to replicate. A Jazz trio can be authenticity replicated in a special room with very special equipment putting limits on the prior questions of “does it sound real” because playback really does sound real, but a full orchestra......no.

I’ve heard Jazz on some fairly great playback systems! Nothing that I could even possibly think of owning myself.
 
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Jan 24, 2022 at 11:21 PM Post #11 of 23
Why what, why I feel Jazz could be played back correct?

Because the system involved could really (it seemed) recreate the three instruments playing. The soundstage was correct, the correct imaging of the actual musicians playing was correct. The room reverb of the recording room was approximate? The imaging and timbre of the event seemed to be replicated. The dynamic range seemed to be approximated too? So all was perfect in an area of reproduction we don’t normally find perfect. And I can say it was the only time in my life this happened.

This was a 2 channel speaker experience.

An orchestra would maybe be able to be replicated but I have never heard it, so I can’t say? But the difference would be in separation of musical elements as well as dynamic range and imaging. This is only a guess on my part? There is also a form of transients that orchestras do live that I have never heard recreated in a recording, typically Jazz is slower. And the actual playback that I heard was a slow Jazz playback.

This is only my opinion based on experience. Also it’s only a single experience. Others may have other views, obviously.

Same as I don’t know if you have heard audiophiles show off their 2 channel speaker rigs? They will often choose just drums or just a single acoustic guitar recording, as it ultimately sounds real!

It seems busy complicated passages prove to be difficult for the engineers to record and the systems to recreate?

And.....come to think of it, the acoustic guitar I heard played back on crazy elitist 2 channel rigs probably sounded real!
 
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Jan 25, 2022 at 12:13 AM Post #12 of 23
I'm just going to sit back and eat popcorn and watch. This is like King Kong vs Godzilla.
 
Jan 25, 2022 at 12:39 AM Post #13 of 23
Why what, why I feel Jazz could be played back correct?

Because the system involved could really (it seemed) recreate the three instruments playing. The soundstage was correct, the correct imaging of the actual musicians playing was correct. The room reverb of the recording room was approximate? The imaging and timbre of the event seemed to be replicated. The dynamic range seemed to be approximated too? So all was perfect in an area of reproduction we don’t normally find perfect. And I can say it was the only time in my life this happened.

This was a 2 channel speaker experience.

An orchestra would maybe be able to be replicated but I have never heard it, so I can’t say? But the difference would be in separation of musical elements as well as dynamic range and imaging. This is only a guess on my part? There is also a form of transients that orchestras do live that I have never heard recreated in a recording, typically Jazz is slower. And the actual playback that I heard was a slow Jazz playback.

This is only my opinion based on experience. Also it’s only a single experience. Others may have other views, obviously.

Same as I don’t know if you have heard audiophiles show off their 2 channel speaker rigs? They will often choose just drums or just a single acoustic guitar recording, as it ultimately sounds real!

It seems busy complicated passages prove to be difficult for the engineers to record and the systems to recreate?

And.....come to think of it, the acoustic guitar I heard played back on crazy elitist 2 channel rigs probably sounded real!
No....

Why... would we discuss idiotic things? There is already too much of that in the world these days.
 
Jan 25, 2022 at 12:53 AM Post #14 of 23
Sound science is a lightning rod for idiotic. Whenever something exudes stability, unstable people want to tear it down. And it's always all or nothing. Signal to noise is difficult to improve sometimes.
 
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Jan 25, 2022 at 2:04 AM Post #15 of 23
No....

Why... would we discuss idiotic things? There is already too much of that in the world these days.
Well, the OPs 1st post does contemplate the questions that have uniformly plagued audio reproduction.

He is questioning a neutral response and the ability to generate a lifelike replay of music.
 

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