lead free solder reliability warning / another Euro blunder?
Aug 16, 2004 at 1:07 AM Post #46 of 123
I wonder how long it will be before the EU bans tin, also a heavy metal. Then we
can start welding electronics instead of soldering.
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Aug 16, 2004 at 2:38 AM Post #48 of 123
Quote:

Originally Posted by PinkFloyd
I'd recommend reading Graham's article over again


PinkFloyd, how about you also reading *the other* facts in the table, that the weakest/cheapest alternative is not the only one?
 
Aug 16, 2004 at 7:56 AM Post #51 of 123
Quote:

If lead is really needed to build critical stuff like cars or planes, they'll use it.


Agreed. Big business will get waivers where necessary. This isn't a leftist conspiracy argument: I'm sure the government will demand that they institute a recycling program to ensure that none of the lead makes it out of the cycle. All will be cosy and straight-up with the arrangement.

The ones who will be SOL will be little guys who have a good argument not to use lead-free solder, but who don't have the juice to get a waiver.

Quote:

weapons malfunctioning


Oh, come now. You think the big manufacturers who make those weapons and sell them to the government can't petition the government for a waiver?

Quote:

lead comes out of the earth in the first place


Irrelevant. Lead, like almost all metals, is not found in its pure form in nature. It's always in compounds, and compounds of metals do not interact the same way as the pure form. Water would be flammable if it were otherwise -- it's hydrogen and oxygen!

Quote:

The failure to recycle used PCBs...is the real issue I believe.


Actually, no, that isn't the real issue. The real issue is that it costs more to extract useful materials from electronics than it costs to pull the same material out of the earth. Hence, it costs more to recycle, hence it won't be done.

There are efforts to set up computer recycling programs here in the US, but every one of them is either subsidized by the company for PR reasons, or there is a charge to recycle the computer. And of course, such unsuccessful programs mean the recycling centers are few and far between. "Hmmmm, should I drive 50 miles to the recycling depot and pay $50 for them to take it, or should I just walk 50 feet outside my front door and dump it in the skip? Hmmm..."

Quote:

Europe should rethink this legislation before it's too late.


It probably is too late. This has been on the agenda for many years now, and as drewd says, many manufacturers have already made the jump. Big business is already resigned to this fact. Screaming from a bunch of DIYers isn't going to change anything. If it was going to be stopped, don't you think the multi-billion dollar electronics manufacturing industry would have done it?

Quote:

China will use pure tin for sure.


Horse hockey.

The vast bulk of China's electronics manufacturing output is for export, and their low prices are in part a result of volume. The loss of the European market alone would probably make up the difference in the solder cost. In other words, it'll be cheaper for them to go along than not.

In any case, Chinese manufacturing is captive to their customers: if the customers demand lead-free manufacturing, they will do lead-free manufacturing.

WIll there be a few places that offer traditional tin-lead manufacturing? Sure, small manufacturers that specialize in customers who sell to non-European markets. My employer has some custom hardware that has never been sold outside the US. If ever we decided to move manufacturing to the Pacific Rim, we might look for such a place.

Quote:

lead-acid car batteries will be exempted from the ban


There's already an effective recycling apparatus set up for those. I don't know about you, but every time I've bought a new car battery, I've taken the old one in to the store to trade in. They give you a discount on the new battery, and because the plates are easy to extract, it pays the store to do this as well.

The ones you'll have to worry about are things like SLAs in UPSes. There are free recyling programs for those (Radio Shack takes them, for instance), but who thinks to remove the battery from a dead UPS before disposing of it? Even when you're just replacing the battery, it's not like the car case, where you go to a store to get more batteries and it's convenient to bring the old ones along with you. You end up mail-ordering the things, so it's a hassle to recycle the old ones. I'm not saying nobody does it; I did it for some recent UPS battery replacements. I'm just saying that I think it's uncommon.

Quote:

If you water is acidic then you may have a problem.


All it takes is for something acidic to be buried on top of the battery in the landfill. Even the stale bottle of lemon juice that the wife threw out would do it.

Quote:

Banning cadmium would also put the worlds largest producer of industrial batteries, SAFT (a French company), more or less out of business


If that's all it takes to run them out of business, they shouldn't be in business. They didn't get to be #1 by being stupid.

No, what'll happen is that NiCd batteries will go away, and everyone will start using NiMH. No need to panic, they behave almost identically. NiMH just costs more, which is the only reason NiCd is still being used.

Quote:

Banning things is a temporary fix at best.


If you want to take things to such a ridiculous extreme, you might as well say that modern medicine is a temporary fix at best, too. Why not scrap the whole multibillion dollar drain on our economy? Surely all those doctors could be doing something useful, after all?

Quote:

I trust someone has already done a cost/benefit analysis of banning heavy metal vs. implementing a recycling system that works.


There are two cost/benefit analyses possible.

One is done in the marketplace. The computer and car battery cases I brought up above are examples of this. One gives a net profit, so it's successful. The other doesn't, so it isn't. This one's copacetic to people of all political stripes.

The other is done by the government. Here, money isn't the currency, it's voter goodwill, which is based on people's concerns over the health issues. The government responds to the people's demands, and forces industry to go along. Here, it doesn't matter whether it costs more to recycle or not. It's mandated, so it gets done. If this one bothers you, vote Libertarian.

Quote:

A proper recycling program for electronics would solve the whole issue,


I'm telling you, it's been tried, and it doesn't work.

Quote:

lead is potentially dangerous if consumed in large quantity.


The problem with lead is, that "large quantity" isn't all that large, and it doesn't have to happen all at once anyway. It accumulates in the body over time. And like any toxin, there isn't a magic molar value that you cross and suddenly you're sick.

Quote:

we are destroying the planet with our insatiable appetite for constant change and "progress" as Roger Waters sings "this planet has amused itself to death"


That's true enough, but let's face it, basing a save-the-planet strategy on this observation isn't likely to fix anything. What are you going to do, legislate responsible buying habits? Maybe sue Sony on the grounds of too-good marketing?

Quote:

the government does more research than that article suggests. The government will not blindly remove lead from solder without fully investigating the effects.


It might surprise you to read this, given what I've said above, but I disagree. The government is stupid in the short term, and often in the long term as well. I don't believe the government has any kind of wisdom, to speak of. What it does have is the ability to listen to what it hears. The problem is, the right voices aren't always the loudest.

Here's what I think will happen: The lead ban will go through, there will be a few years of problems, maybe some catastrophic accidents, and the pendulum will start swinging back the other way. Manufacturers will get waivers where necessary, exceptions will be written into the law, and people will spend more money on electronics all around (materials, inspection, higher shipping costs...)

Who knows, maybe the higher shipping costs will mean the revitalization of local manufacturing. Could be a good thing after all.
 
Aug 16, 2004 at 9:09 AM Post #52 of 123
Quote:

Originally Posted by tangent
This isn't a leftist conspiracy argument:


I'm still trying to put leftist on your usual eurocrat. Naah, those don't match
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Aug 16, 2004 at 10:09 AM Post #53 of 123
Quote:

Originally Posted by Welly Wu
Hmmph...we're battling the war against terrorism and you're battling the war against lead...
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I doubt the bullets used in the "war" against terrorism will be lead free, god those things could be a health hazard. Maybe Europe should ban unleaded ammunition whilst they're at it.
 
Aug 16, 2004 at 3:07 PM Post #54 of 123
I don’t have a problem with implementing the RoHS directive and soldering with Lead-free solder, apart from not being able to finalise design changes because very few manufacturers and component suppliers have many Lead-free components available (please check manufacturers websites and UK suppliers like Farnell & RS if you don’t believe me).

By the sound of things all the industrial giants have sources of Lead-free components that don’t exist to the rest of the world. I think the truth is they are Lead-free soldering using Leaded parts
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. The only problem is the lead flowing into the joint from the component pins alters the structure of the joint. Perhaps this tiny Lead content is making the joints more reliable enabling them to brag about their success? However, we are told Lead containing joints are not reliable after more than half a century of manufacturing with it?

As for the disintegration of Tin, it is a scientific fact. I cited two references and several more exist. They haven’t just been published in the light of the directive, it’s been known about for nearly a century. Even solder with Lead in it exhibits this change to grey powder, but the Lead (which is not allotropic) holds it together. Do you really think adding 2 or 3% of another metal or two will do the same?

Read the consultation paper relating to the ROHS directive at http://www.dti.gov.uk/sustainability..._July_2004.pdf, if you’re going to make comments about waivers. The only “waivers” are for Aerospace and similar life dependant systems. Do you really think 90% of manufacturers would stand idly by if 10% of the same sector were to be granted a waiver?

By reading that paper (it’s only 13 pages and worth printing out) you will see how much it is going to cost the small manufacturers of Europe, and what the benefits to health are – the word “limited” is quoted. To the Far Eastern industrial giants it’s loose change.

As far as health is concerned, Pinkie is right, 1,000 times the pollution from waste solder in Landfill comes from the roofs of Europe (Lead flashings). Rain belting down dissolves more Lead than a bit of moisture in the soil. The Tin/Lead solder can be made safe if boards were removed, ground-up and mixed with the right proportion of Lime or Sodium Silicate, in exactly the same way Lead piping WAS MADE SAFE by water companies in soft water areas, in the days of Lead pipes. By the way, Lead never dissolved in hard water areas – another fact that is overlooked once emotion takes over from logic.

We’re only talking about 10,000 tonnes of waste Lead per year. When transistors were made of Germanium (a relation of Lead, Tin, and Silicon – Carbon Group elements) there was a high failure rate. What did they do with the millions of waste transistor “chips”? A lot are hardcore under the earliest sections of UK M1 motorway. Quite dry under there!

Anyway, so far I’ve commented on the RoHS directive. I noted that a few contributors talked about recycling. There is a directive that comes into force ahead of the RoHS directive – the WEEE directive. This is even more complicated than the RoHS directive – see http://www.dti.gov.uk/sustainability...implementation, for the complete consultation paper.

The scope of WEEE (waste electrical and electronic equipment) could have embraced the recycling or safe disposal of Lead.

Good proportions of Head-fi members are non-European and may think the European directives will have no implications for them. In fact it is far reaching – it applies to distance sellers too (internet dealers)! If you sell to people in Europe you must also comply! Not complying is a criminal offence and selling non-compliant product from outside the EC into the EC is classed as an offence on EC soil. Because of international criminal treaties, offenders can be tried and imprisoned in their own country. For them to comply they must take responsibility for the Lead-free status of the goods they sell. If they also manufacture they must go through the same redesign trauma as EC manufacturers. But it gets worse! They must also take-back product for recycling at the end of its life (WEEE directive), either by contributing money to one of the EC schemes or proving they can take product back for recycling – the emphasis being on proof.

Finally, those into chip rolling will find there is little choice in alternative chips as manufacturers make components obsolete because of the high costs involved in re-tooling.

After reading this you may be surprised I’m all for the protection of the environment. I just want it to be understood that in my opinion the bureaucrats have skated over too many important issues at the expense of manufacturers, their employees, the economies of our respective countries and you, the end user.

CS
 
Aug 16, 2004 at 4:50 PM Post #55 of 123
Welcome to Head-Fi Captain Scarlet, what a great first post :)


Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Scarlet
1,000 times the pollution from waste solder in Landfill comes from the roofs of Europe (Lead flashings). Rain belting down dissolves more Lead than a bit of moisture in the soil. The Tin/Lead solder can be made safe if boards were removed, ground-up and mixed with the right proportion of Lime or Sodium Silicate, in exactly the same way Lead piping WAS MADE SAFE by water companies in soft water areas, in the days of Lead pipes. By the way, Lead never dissolved in hard water areas – another fact that is overlooked once emotion takes over from logic.


Also factor in the regions of Europe that suffer from acid rain, their water systems must be pretty leaded with all the dissolved lead washing off the roofs into the soil. Good idea with the ground up boards / lime method of disposal :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Scarlet
We’re only talking about 10,000 tonnes of waste Lead per year. When transistors were made of Germanium (a relation of Lead, Tin, and Silicon – Carbon Group elements) there was a high failure rate. What did they do with the millions of waste transistor “chips”? A lot are hardcore under the earliest sections of UK M1 motorway. Quite dry under there!


Always plenty of roads being built so using chopped up circuit boards as hardcore would save a lot of money and would also be extremely eco friendly.
 
Aug 16, 2004 at 9:11 PM Post #56 of 123
Even granting the fact that lead-based roof flashings is responsible for most of lead pollution in Europe, that doesn't mean the other sources of lead pollution can be neglected or played down.
 
Aug 16, 2004 at 9:21 PM Post #58 of 123
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alick
Fair point - but wouldn't it be simpler and have a far greater environmental impact to start with finding a replacement flashing material?


Yes it would, but that's a separate front against lead-pollution, and it has its own undergoing agenda. That's what I mean, the fact that a bigger front has a bigger impact, doesn't mean other fronts with smaller impacts should be postponed or neglected.
 
Aug 16, 2004 at 9:34 PM Post #59 of 123
C'mon! We're in the 21st Century, you would think that, we as a society, can come up with a better and more ecological sound alternative to leaded solder. Afterall, gasoline used to have lead in it to prevent knocking, but advances in automotive technology eliminated the nead for it.

There will always be a legacy period when transitioning from one product to another.

I guess when 2006 hits, DIY folks will be stocking up on NOS solder.
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-Ed
 
Aug 17, 2004 at 3:35 PM Post #60 of 123
Edwood and rsaavedra, from the distance environmentalism ideology(no matter what it costs) might sound good like socialistic ideals sounded good to many intelligent guys a generation ago.
Ask the victims of such economically desastrous ideologies.
Literally thousands of often unnecessary or inefficient restrictions and subsidies are already crippling our economies, lead-free solder is only the newest addition.
 

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