[eraser_svk]

Hi evereyone,

simple question - which one is better ? To my ears, Vorbis seems to be way better. LAME just seem to blur highs and kill the details in a very insensitive way (marginally) - it sounds uncomfortable to my sensitive ears though.

Looking forward to your thoughts.

 

[chinesekiwi]

No doubt in my opinion that Ogg Vorbis is significantly better even at a lower bitrate.

To my ears, ogg -q6 at ~192 kbps beats out 320 kbps mp3.

Vorbis -q6 is the best SQ/file size ratio really. You get diminishing returns on bitrates higher than that so it's not really worth it.

 

[psyllium]

I was using vorbis -q6 until I found the decoder in my DAP takes some shortcuts when decoding (namely, it uses low accuracy mode).

I've told Samsung about it, hopefully they'll put a fix in the next firmware for the YP-T10.

In the meantime I'll be encoding to Nero AAC (M4A/MP4)

 

[1UP]

MP3 -V 0 is fine for my portable needs. I use FLAC at home.

 

[LnxPrgr3]

I'd be hard pressed to tell you whether I was listening to Vorbis or the original at -q8 (which seems to put me in 256kbps territory), without doing a direct comparison. The same is true for me for LAME -V0.

After some ABXing, I'd still have a hard time declaring one better. Practicality decides it for me though, for portable use -- my player will actually *play* -V0. At home, on the desktop, I've recently been encoding with Vorbis at -q9 (more like 320-350kbps).

At lower bitrates (say, <192), I'd definitely go Vorbis over MP3. Even when the bitrate's low enough that the distortion is obvious, I personally find Vorbis less annoying.

 

[majkel]

Quote:

To my ears, ogg -q6 at ~192 kbps beats out 320 kbps mp3

Given good mp3 encoder and proper settings this is impossible. Vorbis is always better at the same bitrate but to exceed the mp3's 320kb/s capabilities you need at least -q8, or you don't hear the subtelties that get lost at -q6 and partially lost in -q7. In mp3 it happens in any VBR mode, or CBR 256kb/s and lower.

 

[lexnasa]

Not correct. Most in the ogg vorbis development community are of the opinion that transparency is achieved at q6 (using the latest AOTUV encoder), i.e. the ogg is indistinguishable from the original.

IMHO even at 320k, LAME MP3 is not transparent.

To answer the original question: ogg vorbis is better!

 

[LnxPrgr3]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lexnasa /img/forum/go_quote.gif Not correct. Most in the ogg vorbis development community are of the opinion that transparency is achieved at q6 (using the latest AOTUV encoder), i.e. the ogg is indistinguishable from the original.

When I'm buying a used car, the last person I'm going to ask about the mechanical condition of the car is the salesman

Do *you* find Vorbis to be transparent at -q6?

 

[lexnasa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by LnxPrgr3 /img/forum/go_quote.gif When I'm buying a used car, the last person I'm going to ask about the mechanical condition of the car is the salesman Do *you* find Vorbis to be transparent at -q6?

I do, and I'm part of the vorbis development community, so either way my argument is buggered in your eyes!

 

[LnxPrgr3]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lexnasa /img/forum/go_quote.gif I do, and I'm part of the vorbis development community, so either way my argument is buggered in your eyes!

Heh -- so you are biased

Actually, I didn't realize you were close to the project. I had assumed you were regurgitating someone else's opinion. For that, I apologize.

More toward the OP, opinions about the threshold of transparency are all over the board. I've seriously known people to be satisfied by 64kbps WMA 8

On the other extreme, many here seem to have given up on lossy compression entirely, walking around with iPods filled with ALAC. Codec choice and encoding settings are something you really have to play with yourself to know what's going to work out for you.

 

[majkel]

For me, lossy wma is transparent at no bitrate - lacking full timbre repreduction. The same applies to the ogg till -q6, -q7 starts to show colors. I'm pretty curious, how is it possible to hear the 320kb/ss mp3 is not transparent, and not to hear the ogg Vorbis q6 is far less transparent. FYI, I use mostly Lancer, aoTuV optimized with SSE3 support. Standard ogg Vorbis is transparent at no bitrate for me, but the q10 is pretty difficult to distiguish. aoTuV makes problems with recognition starting from q8, q10 is impossible to distiguish for me, whichever headphones I use.

 

[AudioPhewl]

Quote:

Originally Posted by majkel /img/forum/go_quote.gif Given good mp3 encoder and proper settings this is impossible. Vorbis is always better at the same bitrate but to exceed the mp3's 320kb/s capabilities you need at least -q8, or you don't hear the subtelties that get lost at -q6 and partially lost in -q7. In mp3 it happens in any VBR mode, or CBR 256kb/s and lower.

Please provide pieces of music where the difference is noticeable. I'm able to consistently detect an MP3 at any bitrate given the right gear, but find -q6 Vorbis totally indistinguishable from the original, and have used it solely to encode my music collection for over 2 years now, with regular comparisons, and have drawn a total blank(with 9,000-odd tracks, that's a pretty big comparison).

I'd love to find a piece of music that can prove my ears wrong. I made my tests on some very revealing gear.

~Phewl.

 

[majkel]

Papa Roach "Infest" track 1, Buena Vista Social Club any track, downset "downset" - track 1 and 2. I couldn't find any extra revealing equipment in that thread but a decent laptop + Sennheiser HD25-1 is enough. I hear the same differences between ogg q levels when upload the files to iRiver E10 or iRiver clix2. Guess why they created q7~q10. Just for fun?

 

[AudioPhewl]

Quote:

Originally Posted by majkel /img/forum/go_quote.gif Guess why they created q7~q10. Just for fun?

Nope, but Ogg/Vorbis has been around for a long time now. It's perfectly possible that the quality now achieved at lower bitrates is as good as q8 or q10 was when it was first released.

Can you tell me exactly where in each track the differences can be heard? Or, even better, PM me a link to the FLAC and Ogg'd samples where the differences are audible?

As for the "not revealing equipment" comment, have you ever actually heard a pair of BBC studio monitors? They're some of the finest and most revealing gear ever produced...

Cheers,

~Phewl.

 

[panda]

i did a comparison a few years back and felt mpc(smoother than the other two) was better than vorbis (but colored) which was better than mp3 (grainy), however they were all within a small margin of difference so it's basically negligible to me.