LAiV Harmony uDDC Re-clocker/DDC

Feb 1, 2025 at 3:46 PM Post #242 of 359
Worth noting that this is for random Jitter, which usually is not much of an issue. It's typically deterministic Jitter components that are by far the most dominant part of the measured Jitter in DACs
Worth noting that random jitter is not seen as an issue, as your analyzer cannot measure random jitter. It is a reason why you said so.
:)

Cheap oscilators carry mostly random noise, on the FFT plot of your analyzer you can't see a difference between a good external clock (which also carry mostly random jitter) . But our ears tell us something different.
 
Feb 1, 2025 at 4:12 PM Post #243 of 359
Worth noting that random jitter is not seen as an issue, as your analyzer cannot measure random jitter. It is a reason why you said so.
I never said that, because that's not true.
Stop twisting my words
 
Feb 1, 2025 at 5:02 PM Post #245 of 359
Yet again, close-in phase noise/jitter can not be measured with an AP analyzer.
For a half-dozen reasons, including that the PLL of the AP can not track at low frequency, limitations of FFT binning, and the high jitter/phase-noise of the AP's own "Advanced Master Clock" module. All things that the engineering/support staff at Audio Precision have acknowledged.
I like your choice of the words "close-in" rather than "low frequency". If this close-in phase noise is indeed FM modulation of the center frequency, then the distance from the center frequency is a characteristic of the *magnitude* of the jitter rather than the *frequency* of the jitter. However, I suspect that this close-in phase noise is indeed a low frequency phenomena. When looking at the jitter of the Holo-Audio May with its PLL low pass corner frequency of .05Hz, you can see there is not much of a skirt even with 1Khz of added jitter!

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...may-probably-the-best-discrete-r2r-dac.10161/

Maybe someone with an Audio Precision Analyzer could investigate adding lower frequency jitter signals and doing FFTs and see if a jitter frequency is reached where the skirts increase. I think that frequency would be at or just below the corner frequency of the low pass filter of the PLL. Note: this type of mudulation might be similar to wow and flutter in analog turntables. It produces a similar effect anyway (blurring for example).

Thanks, Mike
 
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Feb 1, 2025 at 5:27 PM Post #246 of 359
I like your choice of the words "close-in" rather than "low frequency". If this close-in phase noise is indeed FM modulation of the center frequency, then the distance from the center frequency is a characteristic of the *magnitude* of the jitter rather than the *frequency* of the jitter. However, I suspect that this close-in phase noise is indeed a low frequency phenomena. When looking at the jitter of the Holo-Audio May with its PLL low pass corner frequency of .05Hz, you can see there is not much of a skirt even with 1Khz of added jitter!

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...may-probably-the-best-discrete-r2r-dac.10161/

Maybe someone with an Audio Precision Analyzer could investigate adding lower frequency jitter signals and doing FFTs and see if a jitter frequency is reached where the skirts increase. I think that frequency would be at or just below the corner frequency of the low pass filter of the PLL. Note: this type of mudulation might be similar to wow and flutter in analog turntables. It produces a similar effect anyway (blurring for example).

Thanks, Mike
Exactly. Designer did everything they could to stabilize the rotation speed of turntables, which in practices is much easier than stabilizing a crystal oscillator, and as you said, the same sound blurring is the result when things are not perfect. Low-frequency modulation is the toughest to get rid of.
 
Feb 1, 2025 at 5:47 PM Post #247 of 359
Some of this chatter is really no longer about the LAIV uDDC but about technicalities and ancillary issues or differences of opinion/facts. Can we separate the two topics so that we can have a thread about the actual product at the heart of this discussion and not a bunch of technobabble masking an ego trip? Folks want to discuss the LAIV uDDC and not whose ANALyzer is better at whatever it is that is being ANALysed. We seem to have lost the plot me thinks.
 
Feb 1, 2025 at 5:56 PM Post #248 of 359
Maybe someone with an Audio Precision Analyzer could investigate adding lower frequency jitter signals and doing FFTs and see if a jitter frequency is reached where the skirts increase. I think that frequency would be at or just below the corner frequency of the low pass filter of the PLL. Note: this type of mudulation might be similar to wow and flutter in analog turntables. It produces a similar effect anyway (blurring for example).
Wow and flutter is deterministic noise, you will see it well defined on the FTT plot. Oscilator noise is random. AP analyzer will not measure it.
 
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Feb 1, 2025 at 5:57 PM Post #249 of 359
I like your choice of the words "close-in" rather than "low frequency". If this close-in phase noise is indeed FM modulation of the center frequency, then the distance from the center frequency is a characteristic of the *magnitude* of the jitter rather than the *frequency* of the jitter. However, I suspect that this close-in phase noise is indeed a low frequency phenomena. When looking at the jitter of the Holo-Audio May with its PLL low pass corner frequency of .05Hz, you can see there is not much of a skirt even with 1Khz of added jitter!

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...may-probably-the-best-discrete-r2r-dac.10161/

Maybe someone with an Audio Precision Analyzer could investigate adding lower frequency jitter signals and doing FFTs and see if a jitter frequency is reached where the skirts increase. I think that frequency would be at or just below the corner frequency of the low pass filter of the PLL. Note: this type of mudulation might be similar to wow and flutter in analog turntables. It produces a similar effect anyway (blurring for example).

Thanks, Mike
Phase noise is indeed frequency modulation. Essentially any real oscillator or other device will not have absolute perfect/infinitely accurate timing, and any modulation of the timing reference will create sidebands. If you want to create a 'pure' tone, you have to have a perfect timing reference. Otherwise if it's either outright running at 0.9999x the intended rate it'll output a 999.9hz tone instead of 1khz. And if it is not constantly at exactly 1.00000x the intended rate, instead shifting phase slightly over time and causing the output to MOSTLY produce 1khz but a little bit of 1.0001khz and 0.9999khz etc, we will see a spread toward the bottom of the FFT as there is some content that is not exactly 1khz.

If these jitter components are at a higher and fixed frequency, such as if there's potentially interference from some switching component in the device, then this will show up as a single spike. For example with this example device, if I add a meaningful amount of 1khz jitter, and the fundamental tone is at 12khz, then we see spikes at 11khz and 13khz (plus some at multiples of those sometimes):

1738449290388.png


If I change the jitter frequency to 3khz, then this jitter moves to 9khz and 15khz, which is 3khz either side of the fundamental.
We still have the multiples as well, but also note that the level shown for the 9/15khz spikes is now lower even though the jitter level I'm adding is the same, this is just because PLLs are typically more effective at higher frequencies, they are low-pass filtered in practice, and so it can attenuate 3khz jitter a bit more than 1khz jitter.

1738449463290.png


If we keep the 3khz jitter, but change the frequency the DAC is outputting to 15khz instead, now we see the jitter components at 12khz/18khz (plus multiples).
1738449898559.png


It's still 3khz either side of the fundamental, because the sidebands we see are a result of modulation between the jitter frequency and the fundamental the device is outputting. So if we have 100hz jitter it'd be 100hz either side, 10khz jitter it'd be 10khz either side, doesn't matter what frequency the DAC is outputting.

'Phase Noise' and Jitter are not from an absolute perspective different from one another, they are both frequency modulation of the output due to the timing reference not being 100% perfect. Essentially if the device is TRYING to output a pure 1khz sine, but the timing reference is not always constant, sometimes being a little closer to 1.0001x what it should be or 0.9999x what it should be, then we will see very low frequency modulation of the output. 'Phase noise' is more just the name most often used to describe these low frequency 'frequency uncertainty' components so to speak. It's 'noise' about the intended frequency rather than a single deterministic jitter component. Though you can absolutely have wider bandwidth random jitter too and this will show up as a modulation of the noise floor itself in a wider area than the 'skirt'.

As to measuring phase noise, it's pretty simple and we just do what we described above, run an FFT and look at how the low-frequency jitter/phase noise components (meaning stuff close to the fundamental) shows up.

Here is a device running off a timing reference with high phase noise:

1738450165819.png


And now here's that same device running off a much lower phase noise timing reference:
1738450497477.png


The low frequency phase noise is drastically lower and therefore the bins close in to either side of the fundamental are much lower, since the device just isn't outputting stuff at those frequencies any more, it's much closer to a pure and exact 15khz sine with less timing error. This produces what looks visually like a thinner stem with a much lower/thinner 'skirt'.
 
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Feb 1, 2025 at 6:06 PM Post #250 of 359
Some of this chatter is really no longer about the LAIV uDDC but about technicalities and ancillary issues or differences of opinion/facts. Can we separate the two topics so that we can have a thread about the actual product at the heart of this discussion and not a bunch of technobabble masking an ego trip? Folks want to discuss the LAIV uDDC and not whose ANALyzer is better at whatever it is that is being ANALysed. We seem to have lost the plot me thinks.
Supported. Although I find the jitter/phase noise topic fascinating, and have both appreciated the contributions of knowledgeable folk and contributed to it (apologies) I agree the discussion is unduly dominating this thread, with the signal to (phase) noise ratio rather low right now, the pure tone of this thread (the uDDC) being dominated by a few high amplitude sideband topics. If you’ll excuse the laboured metaphor.
 
Feb 1, 2025 at 6:24 PM Post #251 of 359
I find the whole tech talk to be fascinating to a point. And then it just becomes noise as my eyes glass over. This thread is about the LAIV uDDC and I wonder how many folks making scientific comments actually own or have spent time with the DDC in question.

All I see from my seat in the nosebleed section is a bunch of nerdy puffery. Which is completely derailing the point of the thread. Which is to speak on the LAIV Harmony uDDC.

A thread about the finer points of if ā€œPhase noise is indeed frequency modulationā€ does not move the actual thread topic further. It will kill this thread with the only outcome satisfying the egos of a select few. Who, I might add, are welcome to start a thread on this very topic and stop crapping all over this one. But maybe I am asking too much.
 
Feb 1, 2025 at 6:25 PM Post #252 of 359
Phase noise is indeed frequency modulation. Essentially any real oscillator or other device will not have absolute perfect/infinitely accurate timing, and any modulation of the timing reference will create sidebands. If you want to create a 'pure' tone, you have to have a perfect timing reference. Otherwise if it's either outright running at 0.9999x the intended rate it'll output a 999.9hz tone instead of 1khz. And if it is not constantly at exactly 1.00000x the intended rate, instead shifting phase slightly over time and causing the output to MOSTLY produce 1khz but a little bit of 1.0001khz and 0.9999khz etc, we will see a spread toward the bottom of the FFT as there is some content that is not exactly 1khz.

If these jitter components are at a higher and fixed frequency, such as if there's potentially interference from some switching component in the device, then this will show up as a single spike. For example with this example device, if I add a meaningful amount of 1khz jitter, and the fundamental tone is at 12khz, then we see spikes at 11khz and 13khz (plus some at multiples of those sometimes):



If I change the jitter frequency to 3khz, then this jitter moves to 9khz and 15khz, which is 3khz either side of the fundamental.
We still have the multiples as well, but also note that the level shown for the 9/15khz spikes is now lower even though the jitter level I'm adding is the same, this is just because PLLs are typically more effective at higher frequencies, they are low-pass filtered in practice, and so it can attenuate 3khz jitter a bit more than 1khz jitter.



If we keep the 3khz jitter, but change the frequency the DAC is outputting to 15khz instead, now we see the jitter components at 12khz/18khz (plus multiples).


It's still 3khz either side of the fundamental, because the sidebands we see are a result of modulation between the jitter frequency and the fundamental the device is outputting. So if we have 100hz jitter it'd be 100hz either side, 10khz jitter it'd be 10khz either side, doesn't matter what frequency the DAC is outputting.

'Phase Noise' and Jitter are not from an absolute perspective different from one another, they are both frequency modulation of the output due to the timing reference not being 100% perfect. Essentially if the device is TRYING to output a pure 1khz sine, but the timing reference is not always constant, sometimes being a little closer to 1.0001x what it should be or 0.9999x what it should be, then we will see very low frequency modulation of the output. 'Phase noise' is more just the name most often used to describe these low frequency 'frequency uncertainty' components so to speak. It's 'noise' about the intended frequency rather than a single deterministic jitter component. Though you can absolutely have wider bandwidth random jitter too and this will show up as a modulation of the noise floor itself in a wider area than the 'skirt'.

As to measuring phase noise, it's pretty simple and we just do what we described above, run an FFT and look at how the low-frequency jitter/phase noise components (meaning stuff close to the fundamental) shows up.

Here is a device running off a timing reference with high phase noise:



And now here's that same device running off a much lower phase noise timing reference:


The low frequency phase noise is drastically lower and therefore the bins close in to either side of the fundamental are much lower, since the device just isn't outputting stuff at those frequencies any more, it's much closer to a pure and exact 15khz sine with less timing error. This produces what looks visually like a thinner stem with a much lower/thinner 'skirt'.
These are all amplitude modulation examples. Not frequency modulation. With FM, the distance from the center is proportional to the amplitude of the jitter. With AM, the distance is proportional to the frequency as shown in your graphs. Only the skirts (near the main frequency) are FM. The spurs are AM modulations. Thanks
 
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Feb 1, 2025 at 6:37 PM Post #253 of 359
This is going worse and worse. Goldenone continue teaching us, but he is not up to the task.

I am out.

EDIT: Many hours passed, member in question was seen, but there is still no admission of errors. In the latest round up of his teaching he talks about about frequency modulation, but brings examples from the amplitude modulation (as @mikefc pointed above). It something completely devastating for his reputation, but he never admits to errors and next time he will try again and again. It is why is a time to end on this
 
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Feb 1, 2025 at 6:40 PM Post #254 of 359
GoldenSound’s phase noise explanation above is good, consistent with my understanding - but inevitably the discussion continues. There’s another level of detail one could go to on fairly well established technical drivers/causes of phase noise, which vary depending on which section of the slope of the phase curve you’re looking at, I have been tempted to but chosen not to go into that on this thread.

If I created a new thread in the Source Components section along the lines of ā€˜DDC & USB Regen talk’ would folk be happy to continue the tech discussion there? Show of hands?
Especially @GoldenSound @mikefc @sajunky @FredA
 
Feb 1, 2025 at 6:43 PM Post #255 of 359
If I created a new thread in the Source Components section along the lines of ā€˜DDC & USB Regen talk’ would folk be happy to continue the tech discussion there? Show of hands?
Especially @GoldenSound @mikefc @sajunky @FredA
I just saw the protests.
Sure, I'd like to. Just let us know how to find it. Thanks
 

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