L.K.S. Audio MH-DA004 Dual ES9038PRO DAC - Van Damme's double impact?
Jun 28, 2021 at 8:11 AM Post #4,021 of 4,419
The latest mod I've done made a huge improvement in everything. Core noise is down further by a factor of 10.
This supports my thesis that a factor of 10 of less noise in the LT3081 brings a considerable advantage.
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Jun 28, 2021 at 1:40 PM Post #4,022 of 4,419
The latest mod I've done made a huge improvement in everything. Core noise is down further by a factor of 10.
This supports my thesis that a factor of 10 of less noise in the LT3081 brings a considerable advantage.


What method did you use to show you obtained 10x reduction core noise?

What are your before and after noise numbers?

You posted photos of the LT3083 mod, pictures of your latest mod do not show any LT3081.
Please be clear about what your are saying here, most of your mods deal with suppressing noise generated *inside* the 004.

The noise generation is *after* the LT30xx regulator, the regulator is useless in the suppression of this type of noise.

See response below about 50/100Hz ripple noise.

My LT3083s took several weeks to settle down.
Making decisions on the LT3083 vs LT3081 after less than 1week, you may end up having to change things again.
 
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Jun 28, 2021 at 1:45 PM Post #4,023 of 4,419
I can not confirm that. The latest mod I've done made a huge improvement in everything.
What is the voltage across these points.png


Make the simple measurement of the amount of 50/100 Hz AC ripple at the input of the regulator.
That was the basis of your thesis about noise @50/100 Hz.

50/100Hz Ripple noise is very low at regulator with your 2x 22000uF cap, estimated around 32mV.
(Actual numbers might be even lower if the effect of the inductor is considered)
If you see a significant difference post your measurement results.

At 32mV, with 130dB PSRR, of the 2 stage regulators the noise is insignificant.
Noise from the 9038 DAC is 120x higher.

Ripple noise the stock cap is 205mV, with your π filter mod, this is a 6.5x improvement.
This is something that is useful for those willing to make the change.
The measurements will clearly show there is an advantage over the stock setup.

Why are you reluctant to talk about this?
 
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Jun 29, 2021 at 2:09 PM Post #4,025 of 4,419
Apart from the issue that you both bring and discuss up on the effect on the sound of the minor or major ripple in the power supply, you do not see anything good to the use of clean power with supercapacitors at some key point of clean power for our LKS, I know that they are dangerous in the sense that they are capable of giving enormous momentary currents.
It seems like a lot of new digital audio products are going that way. What do you think of B0bb and Xoverman?
Other example:
https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/powe...-capacitor-conditioner-board-33v-p-14590.html
If one day I make an external power source superior to the current one, it could be a technology to take into account whenever it is really beneficial for the sq.
 
Jun 29, 2021 at 11:28 PM Post #4,026 of 4,419
B0bb,
What is the optimal value for the Vcom capacitor? 1000-2200uF?

In the link below there is a methodology how to choose (leakage current = 0.002CV) and measure capacitors for the best leakage characteristics:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/diy-low-frenquency-noise-meter/msg952138/#msg952138
150uF is what I used with the stock resistors, it has the lowest leakage around 1uA.

Bigger values improve the low end but also increases the leakage by 3-5x.
You will need to do your own experimentation to see what works best for you.

If you increase the values to 1500-2200uF, you could try to reduce the resistors by an equivalent amount, meaning increase cap value by 10x , decrease the resistors by 10x.
This increases the current in the reference voltage divider by 10x, this counteracts the increased leakage from the bigger cap.

Avoid aluminum electrolytics as the leakage exponentially increases with temperature, highly non linear behavior.
Wet tantalum leakage is linear with temps.
 
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Jun 29, 2021 at 11:44 PM Post #4,027 of 4,419
Apart from the issue that you both bring and discuss up on the effect on the sound of the minor or major ripple in the power supply, you do not see anything good to the use of clean power with supercapacitors at some key point of clean power for our LKS, I know that they are dangerous in the sense that they are capable of giving enormous momentary currents.
It seems like a lot of new digital audio products are going that way. What do you think of B0bb and Xoverman?
Other example:
https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/powe...-capacitor-conditioner-board-33v-p-14590.html
If one day I make an external power source superior to the current one, it could be a technology to take into account whenever it is really beneficial for the sq.
Supercap supplies are quite different from the supplies used in the 004.
You would have to install one into the 004 to make the determination if its claimed performance benefits is worth the hype.
In order to retrofit this type of supply you will need to add a power delay circuit.

This allows the supercaps time to charge.
SU-6 which uses supercaps has this type of mechanism and it takes about 1-2mins to completely start up.

This is complication is not often discussed and you will have to plan for this.

The supercap board you linked looks like a good starting point, you will need 4 delay circuits , 1.2V DVDD/VDD, 3.3V AVCC, 3.3V VCCA/XO.
Check the schematic to see if the UCC board includes some sort of built in delay.

This sequencing is required to make sure the 9038 starts up properly.

The additional delay circuit is for the microcontroller, we do not want the microcontroller programing the DAC operating conditions before the DAC is fully started up.
It must be the last to start up.

During the entire start up phase, the audio output must remain muted, there will be additional work required to adjust the delay for the audio muting relays.
 
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Jun 30, 2021 at 5:01 AM Post #4,028 of 4,419
Supercap supplies are quite different from the supplies used in the 004.
You would have to install one into the 004 to make the determination if its claimed performance benefits is worth the hype.
In order to retrofit this type of supply you will need to add a power delay circuit.

This allows the supercaps time to charge.
SU-6 which uses supercaps has this type of mechanism and it takes about 1-2mins to completely start up.

This is complication is not often discussed and you will have to plan for this.

The supercap board you linked looks like a good starting point, you will need 4 delay circuits , 1.2V DVDD/VDD, 3.3V AVCC, 3.3V VCCA/XO.
Check the schematic to see if the UCC board includes some sort of built in delay.

This sequencing is required to make sure the 9038 starts up properly.

The additional delay circuit is for the microcontroller, we do not want the microcontroller programing the DAC operating conditions before the DAC is fully started up.
It must be the last to start up.

During the entire start up phase, the audio output must remain muted, there will be additional work required to adjust the delay for the audio muting relays.
Yes, the start and stop system of the power supply that I want to design will be managed by a small pic microcontroller, it is very important what you mention that the start of the dac microcontroller must be the last thing to send the initial parameters to the 9038pro that must already be previously operative, in addition this pic must intervene with an output dedicated to the initial control of the silence relays before everything is operative. I am going to buy an evaluation module from a well-known brand of chips for supercaps control, there is a lot to study, also supercapacitors have a discharge period to take into account, I see it as a nice project, the risk of using supercapacitors that can blow up a pcb in microseconds in the event of a short circuit, the life of the designer and that of 004 himself are at risk until everything is not perfect, exciting project, crazy but exciting. It is something that certainly takes away the boredom if you have time to dedicate to it.:bow:
 
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Jul 1, 2021 at 3:21 AM Post #4,029 of 4,419
Supercap supplies are quite different from the supplies used in the 004.
You would have to install one into the 004 to make the determination if its claimed performance benefits is worth the hype.
In order to retrofit this type of supply you will need to add a power delay circuit.

This allows the supercaps time to charge.
SU-6 which uses supercaps has this type of mechanism and it takes about 1-2mins to completely start up.

This is complication is not often discussed and you will have to plan for this.

The supercap board you linked looks like a good starting point, you will need 4 delay circuits , 1.2V DVDD/VDD, 3.3V AVCC, 3.3V VCCA/XO.
Check the schematic to see if the UCC board includes some sort of built in delay.

This sequencing is required to make sure the 9038 starts up properly.

The additional delay circuit is for the microcontroller, we do not want the microcontroller programing the DAC operating conditions before the DAC is fully started up.
It must be the last to start up.

During the entire start up phase, the audio output must remain muted, there will be additional work required to adjust the delay for the audio muting relays.
As I have been studying it seems that for every 100F of capacity a current of 0.3AH can be obtained, (300mA for one hour and 2.7v), with 2 supercapacitors of 3000F in series we obtain 1500F and up to 5.4v of maximum voltage, which gives a current capacity of 4.5AH for a cost of about $ 100 for these two supercapacitors with an expected life of 10 years, it seems that it would be useful for listening periods of a few hours of clean power with only a previous charge of several minutes If these data are accurate it does not seem like a far-fetched idea to use them only on the most noise sensitive power supplies of the dac.
 
Jul 1, 2021 at 1:45 PM Post #4,030 of 4,419
AB I suppose you mean the Amanero module, if you get the right transformers you can try the main board, it will sound without the display / keyboard module as long as the last time it was not removed in active USB mode or you will need a Amanero board if you don't have. The last time the input that was memorized will be active and if the volume is not kept to the minimum sound will come out, if you are lucky enough that it will stay in AES, OPT, COAX, I2S etc, you can try it, the display / keyboard module you will have to get it from the manufacturer It won't be easy to find that in the second-hand market I think.
AB I suppose you mean the Amanero module, if you get the right transformers you can try the main board, it will sound without the display / keyboard module as long as the last time it was not removed in active USB mode or you will need a Amanero board if you don't have. The last time the input that was memorized will be active and if the volume is not kept to the minimum sound will come out, if you are lucky enough that it will stay in AES, OPT, COAX, I2S etc, you can try it, the display / keyboard module you will have to get it from the manufacturer It won't be easy to find that in the second-hand market I think.
Got a display and remote from Jinbo, works like a charm!
Again many thanks to you all 🙏🏻
 

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Jul 1, 2021 at 8:30 PM Post #4,031 of 4,419
As I have been studying it seems that for every 100F of capacity a current of 0.3AH can be obtained, (300mA for one hour and 2.7v), with 2 supercapacitors of 3000F in series we obtain 1500F and up to 5.4v of maximum voltage, which gives a current capacity of 4.5AH for a cost of about $ 100 for these two supercapacitors with an expected life of 10 years, it seems that it would be useful for listening periods of a few hours of clean power with only a previous charge of several minutes If these data are accurate it does not seem like a far-fetched idea to use them only on the most noise sensitive power supplies of the dac.
Charging time of the supercap is an important aspect.
IANCanada's board with 150F caps takes 10mins to reach full charge @ 3.3V.

You were correct about the potential of accidents with the caps, keep the charging current below 1A to minimize the risk.

Charging time can be estimated by the following formula t = (capacitance x voltage)/(charging current)
This gives you a charging time of (1500x5.4)/1 = 8100 seconds or about 2.25 hours if you use a 1A constant current source.

You will need 3x3000F caps for 5.4V as they have to be very close to the hot running 004.
2.7V is at 25℃, at 65℃, safe operating voltage drops to 2-2.3V
 
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Jul 2, 2021 at 4:31 AM Post #4,032 of 4,419
El tiempo de carga de la supercapa es un aspecto importante.
La placa de IANCanada con tapas de 150F tarda 10 minutos en alcanzar la carga completa a 3.3V.

Tenías razón sobre el potencial de accidentes con las tapas, mantén la corriente de carga por debajo de 1A para minimizar el riesgo.

El tiempo de carga se puede estimar mediante la siguiente fórmula t = (capacitancia x voltaje) / (corriente de carga)
Esto le da un tiempo de carga de (1500x5,4) / 1 = 8100 segundos o aproximadamente 2,25 horas si utiliza una fuente de corriente constante de 1A.

Necesitará tapas de 3x3000F para 5.4V, ya que deben estar muy cerca del 004 de funcionamiento en caliente.
2.7V está a 25 ℃, a 65 ℃, el voltaje de funcionamiento seguro cae a 2-2.3V
El manejo de la corriente de recarga es algo fundamental o la situación se vuelve muy peligrosa, por eso compré un kit de evaluación para ver a qué me estoy enfrentando y ver en la práctica que conclusiones saco de esto, si es seguro y factible lo haré, pero si no es confiable o útil quizás tomaré otro camino, pero está bien y me gusta aprender sobre este tema de supercaps y ver los pros y los contras. También veo que los últimos reguladores LDO (LT1763 y TPS7A4700) deben permanecer allí por seguridad y garantizar 1.3vy 3.3v y tendrán su propio ruido interno incluso si obtienen energía limpia.
Compre este kit de 5v y 2x 350F / 3v:
https://www.mouser.es/ProductDetail/700-MAX17701EVKITA#
https://www.mouser.es/datasheet/2/256/MAX17701EVKITA-1888114.pdf
 
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Jul 2, 2021 at 4:57 AM Post #4,034 of 4,419
El manejo de la corriente de recarga es algo fundamental o la situación se vuelve muy peligrosa, por eso compré un kit de evaluación para ver a qué me estoy enfrentando y ver en la práctica que conclusiones saco de esto, si es seguro y factible lo haré, pero si no es confiable o útil quizás tomaré otro camino, pero está bien y me gusta aprender sobre este tema de supercaps y ver los pros y los contras. También veo que los últimos reguladores LDO (LT1763 y TPS7A4700) deben permanecer allí por seguridad y garantizar 1.3vy 3.3v y tendrán su propio ruido interno incluso si obtienen energía limpia.
Compre este kit de 5v y 2x 350F / 3v:
https://www.mouser.es/ProductDetail/700-MAX17701EVKITA#
https://www.mouser.es/datasheet/2/256/MAX17701EVKITA-1888114.pdf
That is a 350kHz switched mode controller, noisy.

ADI makes a linear Supercap controller.
LTC4425 will supply up to 2A charging current, this is a good match for the 1.2V supply, no series caps needed.
Would have no issues with 3.3V supply either

350F is overkill for something that consumes under 500mA (LT1763 max is 500mA)
Use something sensible around 1-5F.

Bigger caps bring a lot of problems like very large (> 10A) charging currents, very long charge times and extra safety precautions.

https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/4425fa.pdf

https://www.digikey.com/en/products...gZwKYBoQB7KAbRAFYAGckAXQF96CAmUkDAF0QBZvmaGQA
 
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Jul 2, 2021 at 9:51 AM Post #4,035 of 4,419
That is a 350kHz switched mode controller, noisy.

ADI makes a linear Supercap controller.
LTC4425 will supply up to 2A charging current, this is a good match for the 1.2V supply, no series caps needed.
Would have no issues with 3.3V supply either

350F is overkill for something that consumes under 500mA (LT1763 max is 500mA)
Use something sensible around 1-5F.

Bigger caps bring a lot of problems like very large (> 10A) charging currents, very long charge times and extra safety precautions.

https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/4425fa.pdf

https://www.digikey.com/en/products...gZwKYBoQB7KAbRAFYAGckAXQF96CAmUkDAF0QBZvmaGQA
Yes indeed that Maxim chip charges at a frequency of 350khz, in theory I did not see it as important because in the charging process the dac will be totally inactive, once the supercap is loaded, the pic would be notified of it by an input, disconnect the charging process and the oscillator, and it would be just waiting a user start button, before all that it would not be possible to turn on the dac, you have to put an input from the pic that detects low voltage and another high voltage from the supercap, perhaps with a few simple zener diodes that control transistors that set the level high or low to each entry would be enough, some LEDs could indicate the status of the process. What I saw very interesting about this Maxim evaluation kit is that they give you everything, even the supercapacitors, it is a fully assembled and tested module for only € 27, which is very interesting to do a safe load test of the supercaps and a subsequent test of the sound with clean energy in different supply points of the 004.
 
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