[SomeGuyDude]

If all aspects of the cable are the same except for the material, silver can sound "brighter" than copper since it will have lower resistance.

Problem is, cables vary so much its not possible to do so. Its very much possible to have a copper cable sound brighter than a silver one. Just make sure its thick

Quit that. Next you're gonna tell me the low pass filters on my DAC don't really make a difference and I can't actually hear 16/48 vs 16/44.1!

 

[ScrofulousBinturong]

If all aspects of the cable are the same except for the material, silver can sound "brighter" than copper since it will have lower resistance.

Problem is, cables vary so much its not possible to do so. Its very much possible to have a copper cable sound brighter than a silver one. Just make sure its thick

The just noticeable difference is 1 db at reasonable volumes. 1 db is a power ratio of 1.259. 60cm copper at 1mm cross section has a resistance of .0128 ohms. Silver, .0121. The power ratio between those cables is 1.057.

The difference is not audible.

Buy cables for looks, durability, or comfort. Not sound.

I'll shut up now since this isn't a thread about audibility.

 

[wopossum]

I'm trying to sum it up for myself. So, pretty much we have:
ZAX as a currently best hybrid option from KZ
EDX as the best ultra-budget option with decent sound
BA10 as a bang-for-buck with 4-way crossover and all-BA setup, even though it's not a new IEM
DQ6 as a gift from KZ with their old-school full DD signature that costs just 28$
and.. ASX as "who needs a lesser amount of drivers nowadays, huh?"

Honestly, I'd like to try all of these, but I think if I will, I will fall into the rabbit hole. Might need to take it slower.

 

[seanwee]

The just noticeable difference is 1 db at reasonable volumes. 1 db is a power ratio of 1.259. 60cm copper at 1mm cross section has a resistance of .0128 ohms. Silver, .0121. The power ratio between those cables is 1.057.

The difference is not audible.

Buy cables for looks, durability, or comfort. Not sound.

I'll shut up now since this isn't a thread about audibility.

Perhaps you can help me calculate how much my use case affects things, I'll admit that normally you don't hear differences between cables if you don't look for them. But when I do, I can reliably tell between the cables.

Assuming a standard cable at 120cm, 90-95 dba to an iem (20 ohms 103db@1mw), how much would the difference be?

 

[ScrofulousBinturong]

Perhaps you can help me calculate how much my use case affects things, I'll admit that normally you don't hear differences between cables if you don't look for them. But when I do, I can reliably tell between the cables.

Assuming a standard cable at 120cm, 90-95 dba to an iem (20 ohms 103db@1mw), how much would the difference be?

If your IEMs output 90-95 dba I'm not sure you'll be able to hear anything at all for much longer

 

[chifihead]

I admit I always find myself wondering if KZ will ever pull the trigger and make a chi-fi flagship in the $100 area. Like a beefed up ZSX. I know they have the AS16 but that's a bit different IMO. It's just cramming a ton of drivers in there.

But isn't the ZSX also cramming a ton of drivers in there? Wink wink

If all aspects of the cable are the same except for the material, silver can sound "brighter" than copper since it will have lower resistance.

Problem is, cables vary so much its not possible to do so. Its very much possible to have a copper cable sound brighter than a silver one. Just make sure its thick

Hang on.. Does that mean impedance adapters would make the sound darker?

I'm trying to sum it up for myself. So, pretty much we have:
ZAX as a currently best hybrid option from KZ
EDX as the best ultra-budget option with decent sound
BA10 as a bang-for-buck with 4-way crossover and all-BA setup, even though it's not a new IEM
DQ6 as a gift from KZ with their old-school full DD signature that costs just 28$
and.. ASX as "who needs a lesser amount of drivers nowadays, huh?"

Honestly, I'd like to try all of these, but I think if I will, I will fall into the rabbit hole. Might need to take it slower.

I would really advise people to take it slower above $50. At that price level or above, there are better options than KZ/CCA, imho.

 

[PhonoPhi]

Perhaps you can help me calculate how much my use case affects things, I'll admit that normally you don't hear differences between cables if you don't look for them. But when I do, I can reliably tell between the cables.

Assuming a standard cable at 120cm, 90-95 dba to an iem (20 ohms 103db@1mw), how much would the difference be?

Not adding the impedance of the source, and going for the values of 92 and 93 "dba" (quite a significant difference notwithstanding the actual levels), the power is correspondingly 0.1 mW and ca. 0.08 mW (1.259 ratio as above).
(20+x)/20 = 1.259, x=0.259*20
That is 5-Ohm difference (!) in the cable impedance gives the difference of 1 dB!

20 Ohm is a good design.
The reason that still much less impedance difference in cables can be heard is that the IEM impedance values are cited at some single frequency, typically 1 kHz, while the impedance is strongly frequency-dependent (reactive coils) and go much lower at the resonance frequencies of the drivers.
Also at resonances the drivers are "power hungry" making the source matter.

So with many drivers, not just some general signal attenuation but significant tonal changes can be heard.

A practical rule again is 1/8, that becomes 1/16 for typical impedance values of single wires commonly cited for the IEM cables.
That is if the impedance value of the cable is 1/16 or less of that of the IEM, it can hardly matter.

For multi-BAs, like AS10 with their unique crossover (KZ just started to learn), perhaps 1/24

Going below 0.5 Ohm for cited cable values typically removes any cable dependence, while older KZ/TRN stock cables could easily measure above 1.5 Ohm.

P. S. For IEMs, like AS10, impedance adapters indeed can make sound "darker" and muddy.

 

[PhonoPhi]

...
I would really advise people to take it slower above $50. At that price level or above, there are better options than KZ/CCA, imho.

We will gladly take your expert advise if you share your wisdom and experience.
Please tell us (me) what are the better options than ZAX for hybrids and BA10/AS12 for all-BAs "above $50" (keeping in mind also that currently no KZ/CCA are above $80, including ASX (sales/coupons)).

 

[r31ya]

We will gladly take your expert advise if you share your wisdom and experience.
Please tell us (me) what are the better options than ZAX for hybrids and BA10/AS12 for all-BAs "above $50" (keeping in mind also that currently no KZ/CCA are above $80, including ASX (sales/coupons)).

KZ is great. I've used and owned ZS5 (broken in an accident), ZSN(gave it to my sister), DQ6 (gave it to my brother, tough i kinda regret it), and currently going to buy CCA CST and endlessly pondering whether i should buy ZS10 Pro.

But if you want to spend around KZ ZAX (priced 900k in my place) money or a bit more, TFZ King series is very nice 1 DD, V shaped, great bass with proper texturing (Exclusive King 1200k, the old king I is 950k but a bit hard to find) . Or spend a bit more and get the darling Moondrop Starfield for Harman sig (used to be 1300k) . Or the safer Ibasso IT00 (950k).
If you want hybrids, Shozy 1.1 (1000K) or spend a bit more on Tri Starsea (1500K).
Surely there are plenty others within these range, but these are the one in my radar (want list really)

Yes these are above the $50 range or even the $80. In which personally, you already saved $80, i would advice you to save a bit more to get one of the above really.
A friend once advice me to saved up to buy a proper upgrade instead than spending it for endlessly side grading or getting mild upgrade

Yeah, KZ has pretty big emphasis on "its good but its lacking a bit in here" that keeps you wanting to buy more. Can't fault that, as i personally while didn't make much in income but slowly saved for IEMs and related stuff for the past 3 years.

 

[unifutomaki]

The main problem with the "just save up a bit more" argument is that it is an infinite regress. Once you've saved up for the Starfield, why not save up that bit more for the Tri i3? And once you've saved up for the Tri i3, why not save up some more for the LZ A7? And you can keep going, and going, and none of these more expensive sets are going to be perfect either, until you end up with an IER-Z1R.

I'm not massively into the TFZ alternatives either. While my T2G was my first introduction to ChiFi, it's been outclassed in nearly every way since then by similarly priced KZs. TFZ does the same V-shaped, bass emphasised, recessed vocals sound signature on every single one of their models. KZ has a house sound too, sure, but that house sound also costs less than the TFZs do.

I think that what makes the audio hobby enjoyable is not getting to the end-game from the get-go but rather the journey you take to get there and the experiences you have with different sets along the way. If you just want to get one pair of IEMs and be done with it like most people then that's perfectly fine, but then most people would probably enjoy a KZ as well and not need to spend any more, since they wouldn't be comparing it to anything else.

 

[r31ya]

The main problem with the "just save up a bit more" argument is that it is an infinite regress. Once you've saved up for the Starfield, why not save up that bit more for the Tri i3? And once you've saved up for the Tri i3, why not save up some more for the LZ A7? And you can keep going, and going, and none of these more expensive sets are going to be perfect either, until you end up with an IER-Z1R.

Well, depend on financial condition, usually i set up max budget, and collection scaling (1 for each grade) i guess. tough budget wise, it kinda creeps up in price over time.
Right I set up my max audio budget at 2000K, and i only spend that much if my saving is in good condition and i absolutely need to replace one of my gear.

My current IEMs is ATH-e40 (bought used for 600K, 800K if new, back-up IEM), TFZ King Pro (1600K, main), ATH-m40 (1100K, pc/laptop use) played on BTR5.

Right now i looking for sub 350k beater replacement which used to be DQ6 but i gave it to my brother as he broke his KZ-ZST.
Well, possibly going to buy CCA CST for it, tough i ponder on buying Blon01/03.

I've tried a custom 20.000K IEMs belong to my richer friend which sounds freakin awesome.
but in my current financial condition, i rather saved up for smallish house downpayment for that much of money.
That and backthen i fortunate enough that i have access to pretty good audiostore in my hometown that allows you to audition for IEMs, which allow me to try dozens of sub 1000k chi-fi iems to satisfy my curiosity without the need of buying one.

 

[wopossum]

The main problem with the "just save up a bit more" argument is that it is an infinite regress. Once you've saved up for the Starfield, why not save up that bit more for the Tri i3? And once you've saved up for the Tri i3, why not save up some more for the LZ A7? And you can keep going, and going, and none of these more expensive sets are going to be perfect either, until you end up with an IER-Z1R

That's a nice point.

 

[Nimweth]

The main problem with the "just save up a bit more" argument is that it is an infinite regress. Once you've saved up for the Starfield, why not save up that bit more for the Tri i3? And once you've saved up for the Tri i3, why not save up some more for the LZ A7? And you can keep going, and going, and none of these more expensive sets are going to be perfect either, until you end up with an IER-Z1R.

I'm not massively into the TFZ alternatives either. While my T2G was my first introduction to ChiFi, it's been outclassed in nearly every way since then by similarly priced KZs. TFZ does the same V-shaped, bass emphasised, recessed vocals sound signature on every single one of their models. KZ has a house sound too, sure, but that house sound also costs less than the TFZs do.

I think that what makes the audio hobby enjoyable is not getting to the end-game from the get-go but rather the journey you take to get there and the experiences you have with different sets along the way. If you just want to get one pair of IEMs and be done with it like most people then that's perfectly fine, but then most people would probably enjoy a KZ as well and not need to spend any more, since they wouldn't be comparing it to anything else.

The "end game" is a mirage.

 

[seanwee]

If your IEMs output 90-95 dba I'm not sure you'll be able to hear anything at all for much longer

Yeah I know, you're not the first to say that. To clarify, it's only for a short while when doing comparisons, say 5 minutes at a time.

Still interested in the numbers if you don't mind

 

[SomeGuyDude]

The "end game" is a mirage.

It's also an up and down oscillation.

At one point I had the LCD-3 on a Questyle stack and the Shure se846 and thought I was pretty much done. Now it's Philips X3 and a few chi-fi items with a Fiio BTR5, and I'm likely to climb back up, only to sell it off and go more economical again.

The only way for endgame to truly exist would be for all headphone development to stop tomorrow and for us to listen to literally everything available. You never know if there's some low-cost gem out there (the ZSX genuinely changed my outlook on everything), or maybe some company will go balls to the wall and make a surprise TOTL that you need to try.