Just got $10,000
Jan 17, 2010 at 4:24 AM Post #16 of 82
If you would like to go budget - with forgiving phones that still sound great: I'm currently listening to a pair of Beyer DT250 ($150 AUD used) through my CTH amplifier ($300 used) with Telefunken tube ECC82 tube ($45 NOS), using my 6th Gen iPod classic with a LOD, and it sounds great! Clear, warm, detailed and involving. Don't you like it when people recommend their own gear! The iPod DAC is not the last word obviously, but it is by no means bad for mid-fi listening.
 
Jan 17, 2010 at 4:24 AM Post #17 of 82
Quote:

Originally Posted by tvrboy /img/forum/go_quote.gif
My criteria is that I want a system that will sound great and beat every other system under $1000, but is also listenable with 256k mp3s.


This is your biggest downfall by far. Having upgraded my 'listening experience' the difference between MP3 and FLAC and is almost night and day. Give the MP3s a boot and go with a head-fi favorite like the HD800 and top level amp/DAC. I'd say after a decent $30-100 headphone and sufficient amp/DAC the differences will be few and far between, so you may as well go flagship.
 
Jan 17, 2010 at 4:46 AM Post #18 of 82
I agree with many saying you should go higher end. I mean if you don't want to go extremely high end I can understand that. But as far as a DAC goes I wouldn't go with a cheap DAC cause when you do decide to upgrade later of if you chose to upgrade to FLAC or some other high end format you will notice the difference in the better DAC. If you buy cheap now you will end up just wanting to upgrade later. I say go with the most you want to spend and get the best gear you can within that range.
 
Jan 17, 2010 at 4:54 AM Post #19 of 82
Stepping up the ladder is more fun than jumping to the top. I think it's important to know what your money buys you -- besides, if you find that you're comfortable with a component in the $200 range, buying a $1000 component is an $800 loss.

"Lossless" only matters if you can tell what was lost. Some music, it really doesn't matter that much, and some people just don't care. A good test, IMO, is Duke Ellington's Money Jungle (it's a great album besides). The bass will likely sound muddier in MP3, the keyboard sustain will cut off earlier, and the high hats will have a sickly shimmer. If you don't notice or don't care about these, keep your MP3s.

The main reason to get a DAC, if you're a computer listener, is that computer soundcards share their home with a lot of noisy components. This doesn't matter much for processing digital signals, but it matters a lot for processing analog ones. Many of the great high bitrate multi channel cards available these days often start to sound like crap when you amplify them externally. If you find your sound card is well isolated, meaning that you can turn it up loud through an amp and play a "silence track" with no audible hum while copying files, I say leave the DAC alone.

Amps are essential. Amps keep the headphones fed and under control, they will generally make any source and any phone sound a little better. Many external DACs also serve as amps, and I suspect many DAC proponents are really just raving about how much they prefer the DAC's amp! Get one that matches your lifestyle -- portable if you plan to ever listen away from your desk, desktop otherwise.

As for phones...if we can convince you to go amped you have carte blanche. Make sure you listen to the phones and not the opinions of users here! Find a local shop for each brand you want to audition and audition them. Don't feel pressured; if you do, never go back to that shop. Every brand of headphone has a slightly different sound, and you want to find the one that meets your tastes. Folks may love the HD 800 but you could not pay me to own another Sennheiser phone.

Oh, and if you want to drop $1000, I'd plan a max budget of $500 to start. Why? Because you'll invariably decide shortly after you've made an investment that you really wanted something different. Build the gearlust into your budget and it's more likely you can save some of your windfall. (I'm speaking as a guy who has $15k in a "Kitchen Upgrade" fund that's more or less frozen until the economy picks up a bit. Every time I get disgusted at one of my components I have to stay clear of the liquor cabinet, or I'm afraid I'd wake up hungover with a bunch of boxes marked "McIntosh" on my front porch...)
 
Jan 17, 2010 at 5:10 AM Post #21 of 82
There are a few top tier headphones that are in my opinion significantly better than the rest. At the bottom of that tier (as constructed by me) are the HD800's. Others in this realm include AKG K1000's, perhaps K340's, maybe the Beyer T1's Stax Omega II's, a Stax 404 setup and some unobtainable hp's like the Sony R10's (which I haven't heard) and the Sennheiser HE60/90's and a few others. For me, it isn't worth spending more than $1000 dollars on a rig that isn't based on one of these headphones as there just not enough room for potential improvement to justify the cost. With 1000 dollars I'd probably buy a good portable amp, a RME dac and a pair of Beyerdynamic DT48's (though many don't like these). That setup would get me close to what I experience listening through K1000's. The DT48's are rare in that regard however, most headphones (Grados, Ultrasones, Sennheisers etc,) are not worth the dough at all (for me).

Though I haven't heard them I would bet that HE5's are pretty great also.

If I were looking to exceed 1000 dollars I'd go with a system based around K1000's as they/it would improve tremendously with better equipment. I'd also seriously consider Stax Omega II's as many prefer them over the K1000's. The difference between those two headphones and D5000's (which I own) mentioned in a previous post is night and day.

If you browse through this forum you'll see many words thrown around which describe the nature of sound as reproduced through headphones. While these are good descriptors they don't really benefit the buyer. When purchasing audio related equipment I think it's important to abandon the jargon and pay close attention to the physical properties of the driver and the headphone. Ultimately what one should look for is the speed of the driver, and the placement of the driver/its enclosure. Faster driver speed=better detail, resolution, accuracy, etc. Well engineered driver placement= better soundstage, imaging, etc. Some people claim they prefer coloration and a warmer headphone. Nonsense. What that translates into physically is a more lethargic driver. Real headphones strive for dead neutrality/speed. For me I let the recording to the coloration. One thing to note however is that while faster dynamic headphones will be more accurate, inherent to their dynamic construction (bulkier driver) the stiffer driver and membrane necessary to achieve such speed can in some instances diminish the bass. Simply, the driver's stiffness prevents it from vibrating below a certain frequency. This is not true for higher end electrostatic headphones as their thin membrane enables reproduction of the entire spectrum. The tradeoff here however is that the bass is less visceral than a dynamic headphone as the thin membrane of an electrostatic headphone can't push as much air as a dynamic headphone. Note this is a slightly truncated description of what's really going on however this is the basic principle. Also electrostatics push and pull while dynamics just push. Electrostatics are better.

At the end of the day you may find yourself choosing between electrostatics and dynamics. There are only a couple headphones (that I've heard), the K1000's being at the top of that list, which is on par with electrostatic headphones. The vast majority of dynamic headphones are inferior to a middle range electrostatic headphone. So unless you have the option for a pair of K1000's in which case rethink your choices, or are willing to sacrifice some bass and treble for one of the most underrated and excellent musical experiences one can have for under $1000 (DT48's) I would say go electrostatic.

At the very end of the day (dusk has passed and it's night fall) I would say save your money and get a Playstation 1 as your cd player, a good pair of electrostats, some cds and go to bed. Or get a Berklee dac.....

As an addition to what I just said, personally I think stepping up the latter is stupid as it implies that money determines the quality of the product. While my post up until now may seem to agree with this mentality, and for the most part it's true, there are exceptions. Cheap stax systems will outdo most highend dynamic systems all day. DT48's will outdo most dynamic headphones. The price of things is determined by commercial demand. The quality of things is determined by the intention of use. DT48s are an industry standard for engineers hence the quality. The materials for the HD800's and the DT48's probably cost about the same. The r&d costs of the HD800's are obviously much higher which, in economic terms, justifies the price. Mystified by fresh looks achieved by superficial aesthetic decisions, the buyer is willing to spend the extra money. Neither costs more than 50 dollars in materials however.

I've browsed this forum for about 7 years. I started with a pair of K701's which I recently sold. Between then and now I've owned tons of different headphones. For the most part, my experiences have been pretty consistent--boring. To me most headphones aren't worth the money. While there has been some wow factor at first, the flaws have been too glaring to warrant long term appreciation.

Certain accurate headphones from stax akg and beyerdynamic have really inspired me and have defied this experience. The main difference these hps exhibit is neutrality. And as a result I could spend my days listening through them (which is not true with most hps I've owned). Don't waste your time and money searching for your coloration of choice as it doesn't exist (except in fairyland). Test a bunch, find the one that sounds the most natural to you, and buy it. I'm sick of rambling so I'll leave it at that.
 
Jan 17, 2010 at 5:13 AM Post #22 of 82
Quote:

Originally Posted by dasmb /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Every time I get disgusted at one of my components I have to stay clear of the liquor cabinet, or I'm afraid I'd wake up hungover with a bunch of boxes marked "McIntosh" on my front porch...)


Oh but the McIntosh gear is so much nicer than a kitchen, besides how can you resist that blue glow, Just walk into the blue light and never look back. LOL Sorry to go off topic just had to comment on that.
 
Jan 17, 2010 at 5:13 AM Post #23 of 82
Great timing - I've also had a substantial lump appear in my account and I also want to spend some on audio. The downside is that gear that I didnt even consider previously (WA6, anyone ?) is suddenly attainable. As others have mentioned, your aim of spending a thousand dollars and having a better system than anyone else who has spend a similar amount is misguided. There will *always* be someone on Head-Fi who nails the bargain of the century, and there will always be a new FOTM that 'trashes' your gear the day after it arrives on your doorstep - I would just take my time and look at the secondhand gear on offer. Most of it is 'CANUS', but for those who live in that part of the world its a treasure trove.
 
Jan 17, 2010 at 5:17 AM Post #24 of 82
Milezone, that would have to be some of the most over-the-top advice given on Head-Fi in a long time. Our man will be sitting there with his 8-year old PS1, a very expensive DAC and a pair of DT48s waiting for the magic to start. Bravo.

Er, scratch that - his profile tells me that he has a mountain of kit - this is just the start of another spending spree. Milezone, I take it all back - do your worst.
evil_smiley.gif
 
Jan 17, 2010 at 5:20 AM Post #25 of 82
Listen, I'm willing to bet you your entire $10000 that not one single person posting here could consistently (90%+ of the time) tell the difference between FLAC and a 256kbps MP3, and they most definitely could not tell the difference between 320kbps and FLAC. Don't listen to them.

I'd recommend an Audio-GD Reference 1 (has been said to be better than DACs in the thousands of dollars for I believe $500-$600), or if that's a bit too much the DAC19MK3. Audio-GD products are top notch and frequently worth much more than you pay for them.

Even with a Ref 1 I promise you you won't be able to tell the difference between 320kbps and FLAC, and the difference between 320 and 256 is pretty much negligible so you should be all set.
 
Jan 17, 2010 at 5:21 AM Post #26 of 82
Quote:

Originally Posted by dasmb /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Stepping up the ladder is more fun than jumping to the top. I think it's important to know what your money buys you -- besides, if you find that you're comfortable with a component in the $200 range, buying a $1000 component is an $800 loss.

"Lossless" only matters if you can tell what was lost. Some music, it really doesn't matter that much, and some people just don't care. A good test, IMO, is Duke Ellington's Money Jungle (it's a great album besides). The bass will likely sound muddier in MP3, the keyboard sustain will cut off earlier, and the high hats will have a sickly shimmer. If you don't notice or don't care about these, keep your MP3s.

The main reason to get a DAC, if you're a computer listener, is that computer soundcards share their home with a lot of noisy components. This doesn't matter much for processing digital signals, but it matters a lot for processing analog ones. Many of the great high bitrate multi channel cards available these days often start to sound like crap when you amplify them externally. If you find your sound card is well isolated, meaning that you can turn it up loud through an amp and play a "silence track" with no audible hum while copying files, I say leave the DAC alone.

Amps are essential. Amps keep the headphones fed and under control, they will generally make any source and any phone sound a little better. Many external DACs also serve as amps, and I suspect many DAC proponents are really just raving about how much they prefer the DAC's amp! Get one that matches your lifestyle -- portable if you plan to ever listen away from your desk, desktop otherwise.

As for phones...if we can convince you to go amped you have carte blanche. Make sure you listen to the phones and not the opinions of users here! Find a local shop for each brand you want to audition and audition them. Don't feel pressured; if you do, never go back to that shop. Every brand of headphone has a slightly different sound, and you want to find the one that meets your tastes. Folks may love the HD 800 but you could not pay me to own another Sennheiser phone.

Oh, and if you want to drop $1000, I'd plan a max budget of $500 to start. Why? Because you'll invariably decide shortly after you've made an investment that you really wanted something different. Build the gearlust into your budget and it's more likely you can save some of your windfall. (I'm speaking as a guy who has $15k in a "Kitchen Upgrade" fund that's more or less frozen until the economy picks up a bit. Every time I get disgusted at one of my components I have to stay clear of the liquor cabinet, or I'm afraid I'd wake up hungover with a bunch of boxes marked "McIntosh" on my front porch...)



Thanks for your insight. I just was lurking and I saw your post and it made a lot of sense to me. I really wanna upgrade my gear before my next pair of headphones(luckily mine apparently do well unamped) but I gotta wait while I save up. I never got why some would recommend against a sound card that has a nice internal 600ohm amp and supposedly a good DAC but the analog noise thing really helped me understand a bit more. I still am really considering getting an Asus Essence ST but some of my faith has dropped a bit.

You also talked about testing before buying, and unfortunately some of us don't have that luxury =__=. I don't live near any specialty stores and am forced to go off heavy research and opinions of the guys here. This scares me even more with DACs/Amps since a lot of the good ones aren't fore normal retail and I have no idea how I can test them out. Oh well, I guess I am just unlucky.
 
Jan 17, 2010 at 5:25 AM Post #27 of 82
Quote:

Originally Posted by crazyeyes /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Oh but the McIntosh gear is so much nicer than a kitchen, besides how can you resist that blue glow, Just walk into the blue light and never look back. LOL Sorry to go off topic just had to comment on that.


I went to school in Binghamton, NY, headquarters of McIntosh Labs. I auditioned my first set of hifi speakers on a $50k all McIntosh home theater setup, including seven MC 50 monoblocks. The hookup wire was as thick as my thumb, and when I shut off the lights in the listening room all you could see was glow.

The speakers I was testing were a pair of two way Tannoy bookshelf speakers, and I was so upset that the guy wouldn't let me audition them on the entry level Yamaha receiver they were trying to sell me I never went back. Bought a set of Energys and a Sherwood at the place down the road instead.

So McIntosh will always represent unattainable opulence in my mind. It helps that they keep taking audio in absurd new directions ( McIntosh | XRT2K ). Though as my system ages I am slowly to convincing myself that used McIntosh finds might belong in my worldview...oh, the power of that glow...
 
Jan 17, 2010 at 5:34 AM Post #28 of 82
I say stay within a reasonable budget (HD650, K701, D5000, HE-5 area) and you won't be upset at all and there are many amps that work well with each headphone.

Flagship audio will sound great but you can get audio that stuns you all the time for not much money and if you save the rest of the money you always have something to fall back on.
 
Jan 17, 2010 at 5:40 AM Post #29 of 82
Quote:

Originally Posted by B-Dawk20 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
You also talked about testing before buying, and unfortunately some of us don't have that luxury =__=. I don't live near any specialty stores and am forced to go off heavy research and opinions of the guys here. This scares me even more with DACs/Amps since a lot of the good ones aren't fore normal retail and I have no idea how I can test them out. Oh well, I guess I am just unlucky.


A few tricks to consider:
1) Make your purchases part of a vacation. You've got to know some hip people in a major city like New York, Seattle or San Fran. These towns are also home to some kick ass audio shops. Besides, wotta souvenir!

2) It sounds like head-fi meetups are a pretty keen way to audition this sort of thing. Never been but I do intend to go in the future, if only to pit my plucky little homebrew amps against real professionals and pick up new ideas.

3) If you can't audition at a shop, find a good online retailer and buy & return. It's not a bad idea to let the retailer know you're planning to audition...they may have demo units or advice on how to keep what you're auditioning from incurring restock fees (or becoming b-stock). It's also sleazy to do this just to "browse" -- instead, once (through research and opinions) you've narrowed it down to two options, ask to audition them both, explaining you'll be returning one.
 
Jan 17, 2010 at 5:41 AM Post #30 of 82
Don't mind me, I'm just here to say congrats on your win, and good luck on your future rig.
smile_phones.gif
 

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