[jp11801]

Ok so maybe he didn't walk up hills both way to school being chased by hellhounds. He isn't really a blues guitarist but he can rip a blues song and play in a blues context. I really like the guy and he is a guilty pleasure. His TRY album is good and he's spme got chops. He's not SRV although is a derivative of that style. The one piece he lacks and most guitarists lack this is the ability to lose himself in the song when he is playing. You see it with SRV, Albert King, Buddy Guy (earlier live stuff). The reason John Mayer seems so good is you don't expect it you figure the guitar is a prop like so many other pop idols and when he can play it's a Wow moment.
This by no means takes away from his talent and it's pretty rare to see someone who can craft a really good pop song and bend it into a blues context.

 

[jdimitri]

I'm sorry, but what's this about his music not being honest?
If you think people have to substitube metaphors in, fine, but saying things as it is is probably more on the 'honest' side of things

I write songs that varies from corny heartfelt songs that probably won't be played to anyone, to songs so blanketed that people would have to think about it to figure out what i'm saying
Which one would i prefer to record or perform? The blanketed one. Which one can i connect to and perform better emotionally? The corny one

We're all more comfortable in our shells, without showing our real self
Or maybe we just don't want to be labelled as a 'sissy'

As long as you believe in what you write or perform, i don't think it can be dishonest

Read these lyrics:
Quote:

No, I'm not colorblind I know the world is black and white I try to keep an open mind But I just can't sleep on this tonight Stop this train I want to get off And go home again I can't take the speed it's moving in I know I can't But honestly, won't someone stop this train? Don't know how else to say it I don't want to see my parents go One generation's length away From fighting life out on my own Stop this train I want to get off And go home again I can't take the speed it's moving in I know I can't But honestly, won't someone stop this train? So scared of getting older I'm only good at being young So I play the numbers game To find a way to say that life has just begun Had a talk with my old man Said "help me understand" He said "turn sixty-eight You'll renegotiate" "Don't stop this train Don't for a minute change the place you're in Don't think I couldn't ever understand I tried my hand John, honestly we'll never stop this train" Once in awhile, when it's good It'll feel like it should And they're all still around And you're still safe and sound And you don't miss a thing Till you cry when you're driving away in the dark Singing Stop this train I want to get off And go home again I can't take the speed it's moving in I know I can't Cause now I see I will never stop this train

I think it captures the theme completely..

Why is it that when songwriters write lyrics as it is, they're called dishonest.. but in the days of simon and garfunkel and the beatles they were great songwriters?

 

[Aman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by trose49 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Sounds like a jealous classmate that probably past him in the halls and was pee'd off he got all the girls!

By the way, this sentence singlehandedly proves your incompetence in this field. John had a terrible social life in high school, and while he did have a girlfriend mostly throughout high school, she wasn't at all one that would be considered to go out with the "guy that got all the girls." John Mayer's first hit single was all about how much he hated our school and the social life it entailed.

 

[bhd812]

Trose buddy,.....


John Mayer is to blues as Andrea Bocelli is to opera...

and this coming from a Bocelli fan, but I accept and understand where the man stands and what category he is..

 

[Wmcmanus]

Do we still need this thread? Seems like it has become too argumentative, and thus not productive, at least to my way of thinking. Nothing wrong with having a discussion. Hey, that's what we're all about!

I just think that there reaches a point where the tension begins to outweigh the fun and threads such as this one lose their utility if people can't 'agree to disagree' about how to evaluate such things as gauging one's degree of 'bluesmanship'.

It's not as though there can ever be any objective measure of this, and thus opinions will differ. Yet, if people keep fighting to 'win' the argument, the argument will become circular and never end. More than that, the argument itself will take over and dominate the thread to the exclusion of everything else, obscuring the original point of the thread which is "Hey, check it out" (full stop).

 

[JSTpt1022]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhd812 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Trose buddy,..... John Mayer is to blues as Andrea Bocelli is to opera... and this coming from a Bocelli fan, but I accept and understand where the man stands and what category he is..

This is an EXCELLENT analogy.

 

[tyrion]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wmcmanus /img/forum/go_quote.gif Do we still need this thread? Seems like it has become too argumentative, and thus not productive, at least to my way of thinking. Nothing wrong with having a discussion. Hey, that's what we're all about! I just think that there reaches a point where the tension begins to outweigh the fun and threads such as this one lose their utility if people can't 'agree to disagree' about how to evaluate such things as gauging one's degree of 'bluesmanship'. It's not as though there can ever be any objective measure of this, and thus opinions will differ. Yet, if people keep fighting to 'win' the argument, the argument will become circular and never end. More than that, the argument itself will take over and dominate the thread to the exclusion of everything else, obscuring the original point of the thread which is "Hey, check it out" (full stop).

What is unfortunate is that there was never any need for tension based upon what seemed to be Trose's original intent. I agree with you on this.

 

[Samgotit]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jp11801 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Ok so maybe he didn't walk up hills both way to school being chased by hellhounds. He isn't really a blues guitarist but he can rip a blues song and play in a blues context.

Damn good point: it's all about context.

Do you need your bluesmen to hail from electricityless shacks in the middle of Mississippi accessible only by pack mule? It's romanticized, but some want it that way.

or

Can you just accept a young white boy upstart rippin' on the geeetar?


As with all things art, it's up to you. Either one works for me. I realize this the kind of wishy-washyness would get me strung up by the Dagny Taggarts, but we are debating art?

I think the thing with blues is, many, who are purist, want a "posthumos", established feeling from this particular genre, which is fine. With rock, rap, country, etc., it's not (as) necessary.

To sum up: Whateverrrrr Mannnnnnnn... Whatever floats your boat.

{Sorry for continuing off topic}

 

[robm321]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhd812 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Trose buddy,..... John Mayer is to blues as Andrea Bocelli is to opera... and this coming from a Bocelli fan, but I accept and understand where the man stands and what category he is..

I think this says it best. Except Andre Bocelli has a beautiful voice. I don't think John Meyer has any special talent on the guitar. Talented guitarists are a dime a dozen. Go to your local guitar shop and most teenagers can shred like those videos that you've provided. He's got more talent than the typical "pop" musician which is usually next to none. But honestly I think Prince has more soul on the guitar.

I don't dislike him, but he doesn’t come off as anything special or unique for my preference anyway. You say he is a true "blues" musician, how can anyone argue one way or another. We can just state our opinions. Mine is that he is just another player, nothing special - whether he develops into someone special later on is up to him and how deep he reaches.

 

[Russ Arcuri]

Quote:

Originally Posted by robm321 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think this says it best. Except Andre Bocelli has a beautiful voice. I don't think John Meyer has any special talent on the guitar.

Then you haven't heard or studied his stuff very thoroughly. That's fine -- you're not required to. But as a guitar player myself, and one who has listened to, played and tried to play many of his songs -- I can assure you that he is an exceptional talent. If you play guitar, give a try to playing one of his early "pop" hits -- Neon. Unless you're a truly exceptional player yourself, it'll take you a week or two just to get the fingering down at half or quarter-tempo. It'll take another few weeks until you can play it cleanly at normal tempo. Then try to do the same while singing the entire song through.

(It's funny, though, that you mention Prince -- as I was arguing with people about his guitar playing talent 20 years ago, in much the same vein. People refused to accept that such a commercially-successful pop artist was actually capable of playing guitar as well as I claimed he could. This entire discussion is so reminiscent of the Prince arguments years ago it's spooky.)

Back to Mayer. There aren't many singers/songwriters out there right now who have the same combination of songwriting talent and guitar playing ability. Two clips posted on YouTube don't suffice for a thorough evaluation of somebody's talent. You come to understand the depth of somebody's talent at any given task not by listening to them for 3 minutes but by listening to a variety of their work over a longer period of time. It was obvious in a short clip that Jimi Hendrix was a phenomenal guitar player, but the depth of his genius couldn't be appreciated until one listened to the length and breadth of his work. The same is true of Mayer. (I'm not equating them, BTW. I'm simply making a point about exposure vs. evaluation of talent.)

You know, I wasn't going to comment on this, but now I guess I will. Somebody who plays classical music is a classical player. Somebody who plays jazz is a jazz player. Somebody who plays rock is a rocker. Why isn't somebody who plays blues a blues man? Mayer's blues may be more influenced by rock or jazz or pop than many others, but that doesn't mean it isn't blues. Listen to "Come Back to Bed," "Covered In Rain" or "Gravity" and tell me he doesn't play the blues. Better yet, listen to "Out of My Mind," and tell me why it would be out of place in, say, the Robert Johnson or BB King catalogs. If you didn't recognize his voice in that song you'd never know it wasn't something written and played decades ago by an acknowledged blues master. The cut off of TRY! is played with honesty and feeling and everything people keep trying to say he doesn't exhibit.

 

[robm321]

^ I've played guitar since the early 80s. I've lost interest in rock early on. I got into jazz and a little into classical. Now I'm starting all over with classical guitar to get my form right,etc. I still play with a pick but it is limited compared to fingerpicking. I used to learn Steve Vai, Al Di Meola, and Fank Gambale songs when I thought the faster the better - I no longer think that way. In fact, I can't stand Malmsteen

. Being honest I could never play them like they could, but could play the notes about as fast. And it's been so many years since I've kept up on that stuff that my memory only recalls bits and peices and my fingers are rusty.

- So my efforst are for classical now which is more difficult by far but rewarding. BUT since you and trose are so adament on this guy, maybe I'll listen to more of his music. I can tell a good player just by hearing him or whether it would be difficult to play or not, or more importantly if he has the feel of the guitar or the feel of the blues - rather than just playing different blues riffs together. So I won't learn it, but I will keep an open mind on this guy, how's that

 

[Coltrane]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ Arcuri /img/forum/go_quote.gif Then you haven't heard or studied his stuff very thoroughly. That's fine -- you're not required to. But as a guitar player myself, and one who has listened to, played and tried to play many of his songs -- I can assure you that he is an exceptional talent. If you play guitar, give a try to playing one of his early "pop" hits -- Neon. Unless you're a truly exceptional player yourself, it'll take you a week or two just to get the fingering down at half or quarter-tempo. It'll take another few weeks until you can play it cleanly at normal tempo. Then try to do the same while singing the entire song through.

A few things.

1. Physical ability has really nothing to with musical ability. Especially in the blues. Yngwie certainly isnt much of a blues man. I would barely call him a musician.

2. Ok, ill bite. I actually got the tab. (http://gprotab.net/search_tabs.php?a...ge=1&=Go#23917) and gave it try a try. Hard? Yeah, its actually a bit difficult on the fingers. It would hardly take a week or two to get it a half speed. I could get it at perfect speed within an hour, definitely. It would be piece that I would be willing to give my students though as a good chops builder.

Quote:

(It's funny, though, that you mention Prince -- as I was arguing with people about his guitar playing talent 20 years ago, in much the same vein. People refused to accept that such a commercially-successful pop artist was actually capable of playing guitar as well as I claimed he could. This entire discussion is so reminiscent of the Prince arguments years ago it's spooky.)

Except Prince actually is an amazing guitar player. I have no problem admitting that.

Quote:

Back to Mayer. There aren't many singers/songwriters out there right now who have the same combination of songwriting talent and guitar playing ability.

Ben Harper, Robert Randolph, Willy Porter, Martin Sexton, all three guitarists for the Drive By Truckers (I can keep going)

I think one of the biggest issues with Mayer supporters is there is often immediately the "you havent heard all of his stuff argument." There is the assumption the we are only basing our opinions off of his TRL hits. Atleast in my case, it simply isnt true. I saw that Crossroads clip WELL before Trose posted it in the other thread. I have seen John Mayer live, in a a completely instrumental situation where all he did was jam. I know exactly what Mayer can do on guitar.

I have no problem ending this argument here, because I have clearly said my piece. I just want it to be known that my opinion of John Mayer has nothing to do with lack of knowledge.

 

[Russ Arcuri]

Quote:

Originally Posted by robm321 /img/forum/go_quote.gif So my efforst are for classical now which is more difficult by far but rewarding.

You're in a better position than most to play something like "Neon." It's not easy by rock or pop standards, but I'd be willing to bet a classical player could master it more quickly than a heavy metal guy. It's meant for a standard steel-string acoustic but I'm sure it would sound great on a nylon string guitar as well. Quote:

BUT since you and trose are so adament on this guy, maybe I'll listen to more of his music.

Trose seems more admant than I am... almost militant.

Honestly I think that kind of insistence just puts those he's trying to convince more on the defensive. I'm guilty of it as well but I try to keep it check. In any case I wasn't originally drawn into the discussion by Trose's assertions or the typical replies. It was when Coltrane claimed Mayer was dishonest with his writing/playing, and that he could tell by the way he had his collar arranged in the video clip. Sheesh, it sounds like a bunch of high school girls deciding whether another girl is cool enough to join their clique -- "Just look at that popped collar!??"

Seems to me one should judge musical ability/legitimacy by the music one plays, not by the way somebody's collar looks in a video clip. Quote:

I can tell a good player just by hearing him or whether it would be difficult to play or not, or more importantly if he has the feel of the guitar or the feel of the blues - rather than just playing different blues riffs together.

Let me be clear, then -- "Neon" is not a blues song. It's pure pop, but it's very good pop, and considerably more difficult to play than it might sound. Quote:

So I won't learn it, but I will keep an open mind on this guy, how's that

You might be misled. It sounded a little tricky the first time I heard it, but it's more difficult than that. It's one you actually have to attempt to play to get some idea of the difficulty.

 

[Russ Arcuri]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coltrane /img/forum/go_quote.gif 1. Physical ability has really nothing to with musical ability. Especially in the blues. Yngwie certainly isnt much of a blues man. I would barely call him a musician.

Not sure how this relates, unless you're trying to say Mayer has physical ability but no musical ability. If that's the case, I disagree even more. Mayer's a hell of a songwriter -- he has an excellent feel for what makes a song work, unlike -- for example -- Malmsteen, who I agree has tons of physical ability but no sense of what makes a good song. Again -- listen to something like St. Patrick's Day, 3x5, or City Love -- and tell me he has no songwriting talent. Quote:

Hard? Yeah, its actually a bit difficult on the fingers. It would hardly take a week or two to get it a half speed. I could get it at perfect speed within an hour, definitely.

I said "unless you're an exceptional player" it would take a week. As for the 1 hour prediction -- not likely, no matter how good you are. If you got that impression from the tab, then perhaps it's not an accurate tab. Quote:

Except Prince actually is an amazing guitar player. I have no problem admitting that.

Exactly my point. So is Mayer. Quote:

Ben Harper, Robert Randolph, Willy Porter, Martin Sexton, all three guitarists for the Drive By Truckers (I can keep going)

I agree they're all good, though that doesn't mean anything per the previous discussion. Naming people that are good players and good songwriters is a fun exercise, but it misses the larger point, that overall there aren't many as good as Mayer at both tasks. Quote:

I think one of the biggest issues with Mayer supporters is there is often immediately the "you havent heard all of his stuff argument."

It wouldn't be such a common refrain if it weren't the case most of the time. You may be an exception. Quote:

I have seen John Mayer live, in a a completely instrumental situation where all he did was jam. I know exactly what Mayer can do on guitar.

That may be what Trose is advocating, but I'm not. I'm saying he's a fine guitar player and an exceptional songwriter.

 

[Coltrane]

Again you are saying 'listen to this.' You are missing the point.

As for the song 'Neon.' I didnt get any impression from looking at the tab, I got my impression from taking out my guitar and actually playing the song.

If you want to have a discussion on songwriting as well, that is fine. I really will end with saying that I think much more highly of his blues playing than I do of his songwriting.

Enjoy!