[Johnny Woody]

Reading the last few posts I feel that some tempering of the magic of balanced is in order. A balanced output is quite often a better output on a device that also includes a single ended connection because the implementation is designed that way. A lot of this is down to the way the topology is designed to be balanced vs the SE topology. That does not mean that a device that is balanced will by default outperform a device that is SE.

The QP1R, Cayin N6, Chord Mojo, ALO Rx are all good examples of exceptional sound from a portable device that is single ended only. Indeed I much prefer the sound of the SE Mojo to the Angie over a balanced AK240 to the Angie. At that level, when the topology is done well it's more about preference than SE vs balanced between devices. I will agree that typically, ON THE SAME DEVICE, the balanced output will sound better than the SE output.

I agree with you that balanced out is not always better than single end out.
Technological speaking, balanced out has its advantages.
But manufacturers may not implement the balanced out as well as their single end out.
AK DAPs for instance for instance are often considered to have better single end out then balanced out.
However, my Onkyo DP-X1 single end out only uses 1 dac and 1 amp while balanced out uses 2 dac and 2 amp.
Which I can safely tell you that it's way superior when using balanced out.
In this case, who knows if the single end out is better if it also utilize 2 dac and 2 amp?

 

[PinkyPowers]

I agree with you that balanced out is not always better than single end out.
Technological speaking, balanced out has its advantages.
But manufacturers may not implement the balanced out as well as their single end out.
AK DAPs for instance for instance are often considered to have better single end out then balanced out.
However, my Onkyo DP-X1 single end out only uses 1 dac and 1 amp while balanced out uses 2 dac and 2 amp.
Which I can safely tell you that it's way superior when using balanced out.
In this case, who knows if the single end out is better if it also utilize 2 dac and 2 amp?

It depends on which Astell&Kern player we're talking about. The AK120ii has two DAC chips and more output voltage in Balanced. But the AK100ii has only one DAC chip and is more powerful in SE.

 

[x RELIC x]

I agree with you that balanced out is not always better than single end out.
Technological speaking, balanced out has its advantages.
But manufacturers may not implement the balanced out as well as their single end out.
AK DAPs for instance for instance are often considered to have better single end out then balanced out.
However, my Onkyo DP-X1 single end out only uses 1 dac and 1 amp while balanced out uses 2 dac and 2 amp.
Which I can safely tell you that it's way superior when using balanced out.
In this case, who knows if the single end out is better if it also utilize 2 dac and 2 amp?

The AK240 and AK120ii use dual DACs in balanced and they sound much better balanced. The AK380 measures much worse in balanced operation, but users like the sound regardless. Your Onkyo would need a Bridge Tied Load configuration if using two DACs for SE output, which would complicate things for Onkyo. Actually, depending on the substrate noise from the DAC and the topology of the analogue section SE can measure much better than any balanced output from any device, from a transparency point of view. Remember, the more components in the signal path the more distortion is generated. The trouble is in the way that the device is implemented right from the DAC to analogue output, and balanced output is actually a less expensive solution than dealing with the core issues from SE output in most 'conventional' setups.

This quote from Nathan on OhmImage always makes me laugh regarding the AK380's balanced output. The article is about the balanced mod to the Mojo (which really doesn't make it balanced as the Mojo is SE only - but allows you to use an AK compatible 2.5mm balanced cable).

http://ohm-image.net/data/audio/rmaa-mst-audio-mojo-kai-balanced-24-bit

"The above aside, Ryuzoh’s mod completely ****s all over both Onkyo’s DP-X1 and AK380 under load at each unit’s maximum stable volume. The results are ugly. The DP-X1 outputs 328x more THD and 128x more IMD at maximum stable volumes under the same load; at 4191x the THD and 3441x the IMD, and especially at its asking price and against its ultimate marketing, the AK380 deserves to be thrown from the tallest building, drowned it a year’s worth of rock-concert sludge, and then blue angeled to a fine powder before being sniffed by next-year’s juvenile delinquents. Even correcting for the 6dB in output, the AK380 still outputs 2000x more THD than Ryuzoh’s mod, while the DP-X1 gets away at about 100x. Dropping the AK380 to below the volume used by Ryuzoh’s mod yields significant drops in distortion. THD is now merely acceptably high. IMD still is insane. Put simply: the AK380’s balanced output is worthless for anything beyond tempting new cable purchases. Under load, the DP-X1’s output isn’t that much better."

At any rate, yes, when there is a component with a well implemented balanced output it can sound fantastic with the Angie. It's not a drivability issue as the Angie are very easy to drive and there really is no 'drive well' conversation here given the Angie's Balanced Armature driver design. Balanced mode with the Angie has more to do with how well that mode is implemented in the source device rather than SE not being powerful enough for the Angie is more to the point.

 

[Johnny Woody]

The AK240 and AK120ii use dual DACs in balanced and they sound much better balanced. The AK380 measures much worse in balanced operation, but users like the sound regardless. Your Onkyo would need a Bridge Tied Load configuration if using two DACs for SE output, which would complicate things for Onkyo. Actually, depending on the substrate noise from the DAC and the topology of the analogue section SE can measure much better than any balanced output from any device, from a transparency point of view. Remember, the more components in the signal path the more distortion is generated. The trouble is in the way that the device is implemented right from the DAC to analogue output, and balanced output is actually a less expensive solution than dealing with the core issues from SE output in most 'conventional' setups.

This quote from Nathan on OhmImage always makes me laugh regarding the AK380's balanced output. The article is about the balanced mod to the Mojo (which really doesn't make it balanced as the Mojo is SE only - but allows you to use an AK compatible 2.5mm balanced cable).

http://ohm-image.net/data/audio/rmaa-mst-audio-mojo-kai-balanced-24-bit
At any rate, yes, when there is a component with a well implemented balanced output it can sound fantastic with the Angie. It's not a drivability issue as the Angie are very easy to drive and there really is no 'drive well' conversation here given the Angie's Balanced Armature driver design. Balanced mode with the Angie has more to do with how well that mode is implemented in the source device rather than SE not being powerful enough for the Angie is more to the point.

Thx mate for all those insightful information

 

[Kennyaudiophile]

Just got my Angie these days as it is in clearance at 750 bucks.

I'm still using the old AK120, but wonder if the Angie would sound better if I get a DXP1.

 

[Johnny Woody]

Just got my Angie these days as it is in clearance at 750 bucks.

I'm still using the old AK120, but wonder if the Angie would sound better if I get a DXP1.

You better try it out first.
 
To me DP-X1's balanced out is one of the best match up with Angie.

 

[KowalskiFUT]

Bought 1st gen, but shop ran out of them so got Full metal version instead. The sound is unreal, and build quality is outstanding. I still prefer the looks of the old gen.

 

[Paulo Abreu]

Bought 1st gen, but shop ran out of them so got Full metal version instead. The sound is unreal, and build quality is outstanding. I still prefer the looks of the old gen.

 
FMJ (2nd) is smaller and that´s very good, shouldn't stick so much out of ears.

 

[PinkyPowers]

The hand-crafted look is great on the 1st gen, but the 2nd gen's smaller size will make more of a difference in the long run, trust me.

 

[KowalskiFUT]

Have you used both? Is there any other difference than build material and size?

 

[Paulo Abreu]

Have you used both? Is there any other difference than build material and size?

There's the 4th order crossover
My 2 cents

 

[PinkyPowers]

There's the 4th order crossover
My 2 cents

All versions of Angie have that. You're thinking Roxanne.

 

[Johnny Woody]

Have you used both? Is there any other difference than build material and size?

Not in SQ as both I and II use the same design and BAs inside.
 
However, the smaller size of II is easier for people to find the sweat spot for a perfect seal.
 
Also, the cables are much improved in the package of II.
 
Since I have no problem to maintain a perfect seal with my Angie I, I am not tempted to "upgrade" to II.
 
And my Beat Audio Supernova cable is way better than the improved cable of II anyways.
 
So, IMHO, I would suggest people to try on Angie I first.
 
If it fits, buy it with an upgrade cable. It cost as much as II but sound better.

 

[jehugo]

I've listened to Angie se/balanced on both AK and Onkyo. I prefer balanced dp x1 by a wide margin, though everyone's a winner with these matches.

 

[Johnny Woody]

I've listened to Angie se/balanced on both AK and Onkyo. I prefer balanced dp x1 by a wide margin, though everyone's a winner with these matches.

Which AK you've tried?