[rds]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rembrant /img/forum/go_quote.gif You see.. That statement implies that I am either: Too stupid to understand what your going to say. Unwilling to listen to what you have to say. A troll that only posts to elicit response. In not so many words, it says. You are beneath me and there is no possible way you could understand. None of the above is correct. If you believe my statements to be in error, perhaps you could point to some literature that explains exactly what properties of the cable are changed after it has once again reached room temperature and how any thing in the process alters the way an electron traverses the cable. Who knows, I might learn something new.

I think you assume too much about what FallenAngel might have said. Maybe he just wanted to praise your insight, but was then offered a million dollars to do something else.
Basically, I would imagine he took exception to your sarcastic tone trying to slight people who believe in and/or sell cryogenic cable.
If you want to know how cryogenic treatment changes metal it's easy to find that info. Your attitude doesn't exactly speak to your claims of having a scientific approach.

 

[qusp]

Rembrant:

as if I would send anything to you

see its responses like this that elicit some response; you are the troll here; do some more research before making such claims; even apart from the sonic qualities of the wire, cryo treating copper especially for applications that require it to move constantly; adds considerably to the durability of said wire. so in a portable or headphone cable context it makes a lot of sense.

also; cryo treating is more than just dumping some wire in a vat of liquid nitrogen. I to was skeptical, but why would they use it with blades to harden them engineers no less. if it would just change back to its previous form when it came back to room temperature. maybe if they did that quickly I might; but they dont, the warm up is done very slowly. I dont know everything about the process, but I do know that. your comments against FallenAngel are out of line and provocative. I suggest you try and have some fun somewhere else

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbd2884 I have hard time believing Jena wires are so superior, mostly because I don't believe Jena even makes the wires. Outsource, then Cryo, then charge up the *ss for them. A factility to make wires does not seem to be possible for Jena, but I could be wrong, but don't think so. It's like SAA, reading a whole lot of good marketing for what's probably just UPOCC wires. Find a good source for wires and then just cryo service for far less as UncleErik suggested, doesn't seem hard to me. Also I don't wear Nikes and as far as I know, products I use are from companies that are reputable. I've said it before, I only have what I need, so my materialistic consumerism has been very limited. But I do eat at McDonalds, if people are growing fat, it's their problem not McDonalds. But with Jena would seem more personal as if you are member of trade, you are using their product then in turn selling them, it's now part of your reputation.

well believe it or dont believe it; doesnt matter to me one bit. And sounds to me by your language, like you havent even heard or used them personally to comment and are only going on this story.

seems you missed my point about macdonalds and co too. the point being that there are bad business practices everywhere and although what jena did wasnt good business; it pales by comparison to the companies that most people; including you buy products from every day. even your 'reputable companies' will almost definately have a skeleton in their closet that if given the press that this was and if handled as badly by them as this was; could turn into the same sort of scenario. if you eat mcdonalds you are buying one of the worst. not just the obesity problem, but their treatment of animals at their supply facilities, anticompetitive marketing and pricing... I could go on. there are likely many objects in your home that were produced in part, or aided by some kind of human suffering or evil; unfortunately thats just the way the world is. and if this story is all that people can come up with over and over again is the worst story about jena, then although I find it unsavoury, its not enough by itself to make me stop buying a superior product.

whether jena herself makes the product or not I really dont care; if somebody can show me where or who that is, I will gladly buy from them as IME it is in fact superior in every way to the wires I have tried ion its place bar piccolino; which is more than 10x the price. so yes if this other OCC wire from cryo parts turns out to be better I will gladly start using that instead. I dont have the time or space to be doing the cryo myself all the time to be honest, I would rather pay someone that knows what they are doing and uses their space to do so. besides I still havent come accross a wire; cryo or not that is as flexible; which is high on my agenda. teflon coated wire is stiffer and PVC is crap. most wires seem to be a much lower strand count and/or use insulation that makes it much less usable in this context. there are other wires that I use for other purposes; I have maybe 10 different types of wire, with jena being just one of them.

notice I havent even touched on the sonic properties; i'm not going to bother going into that with you; I and many others find it to make a sonic difference and thats all that matters to me on that front

 

[rds]

Quote:

Originally Posted by qusp /img/forum/go_quote.gif there are likely many objects in your home that were produced in part, or aided by some kind of human suffering or evil; unfortunately thats just the way the world is.

That's a pretty bleak outlook.
I agree with the first part of that sentence. But we don't have to accept that. In the end it is our choices as consumers that determine what evils are permissible.
If you buy from a company that you know mistreats animals for example, then it is you who not only allows that situation to continue but tacitly condones it.

Of course there is nothing you can do about things you're not aware of, other than educating yourself. But we are responsible for our actions within the scope of our knowledge. There really is truth to the saying "ignorance is bliss".

 

[qusp]

I agree totally with what you just said; I dont buy macdonalds for that reason and others; where possible i avoid companies that willingly exploit people and live of human suffering, but that is not what we are talking about here are we??I was just using it as an example, as I knew that there would be a product that the OP used knowing that it relied on some form of evil to exist. which IMO is much worse than this situation. the point being 'dont throw stones in glass houses'

 

[apatN]

Quote:

Originally Posted by digger945 /img/forum/go_quote.gif That's why you DIY. I own a short 18" ALO IC that's made with Jena, I am listening to it atm. The biggest reason I wouldn't recable with Jena is the $cost$, and some other compelling reasons just brought up at the meet yesterday. There are a lot of other choices for me, and it's tough to make that plunge without first hearing the difference.

Sounds as if you have something interesting to say...

 

[mbd2884]

Quote:

Originally Posted by qusp /img/forum/go_quote.gif I agree totally with what you just said; I dont buy macdonalds for that reason and others; where possible i avoid companies that willingly exploit people and live of human suffering, but that is not what we are talking about here are we??I was just using it as an example, as I knew that there would be a product that the OP used knowing that it relied on some form of evil to exist. which IMO is much worse than this situation. the point being 'dont throw stones in glass houses'

I'd love to know what human suffering McDonald's is responsible for. Very curious as the US does in fact enforce strict laws in treatment and for such a large and publicly known restaurant chain, any discrimination or harm to humans would be headlined. Also love to know how they are exploiting people.

Even so, for someone who feels so strongly about human treatment, surprising you would support Jena cables by throwing your money into Jena's pockets for cables with priced jacked 3000% or more. It's quite funny, IMO, considering there is no evidence as Rembrandt mentioned of cryo treatment, even VH Audio admits to it, no evidence that it makes a difference. More hilarious is you have no idea where the wires Jena uses are made, which really means, you have no clue what wires Jena uses. Trusting that marketing blah blah and forking over that much money is just weird.

 

[qusp]

LOL not worth moving on with this. I dont care where the wire is made; so I havent snooped into her business. the wire is superior to others I have used that cost about the same (maybe a touch less and a couple more expensive); your mention of a 3000% markup is plainly ridiculous; shows you have no clue of what even high quality non cryo wire costs. vampire for instance, which is not even close to as good as jena IMO is $2 per foot (non-cryo).at the risk of repeating myself again; if I find another wire that is better; I will start using that (and I am looking); but until then I will use jena

if you dont know what evil mcdonalds do than you are more blind than I thought. typical that you would not think about what may be happening outside your own country and sounds like you believe that your government isnt falible and that a massive multinational couldnt find their ways around guidlines. have you even seen the movies and amount of documentaries made on the subject??. if you read what I said again I did not say that macdonalds was the cause of human suffering; I only agreed that it was evil, had bad business practices and mistreated animals. I am sure they come pretty close; but they have a lot more to answer for as I stated in the post before.

 

[Duggeh]

I wonder if the wires weren't cryo treated how long it would take them to turn green. That few extra weeks of an ugly salmon coloured cable is well worth it before it turns into an ugly algae coloured one.

 

[qusp]

any copper will turn green duggeh; thats just what happens to copper if it is let oxidize in the air. simple science. all you have to do is seal the solder joints with epoxy and hey presto; your wires stay pink for as long as you want. anything else is user error. if you dont want to do that and you cant stand green wires, then dont buy wire with a clear coating, simple as that because it will happen to all of it. not just jena blame go(or whoever you want) for that one; any copper that doesnt turn green when left in the air is not pure copper, but some other alloy

 

[qusp]

anyway; i'll leave you scientists to argue about this; funny how when skeptics decide to argue against things that the actual science seems to be ignored in their argument. cryo is a process that is used in more than audio to improve the structure of metal; whether you choose not to believe it has any effect in this context is up to you and has no effect on whether I choose to use it or not.

have fun

 

[Duggeh]

Quote:

Originally Posted by qusp /img/forum/go_quote.gif any copper will turn green duggeh; thats just what happens to copper if it is let oxidize in the air. simple science. all you have to do is seal the solder joints with epoxy and hey presto; your wires stay pink for as long as you want. anything else is user error. if you dont want to do that and you cant stand green wires, then dont buy wire with a clear coating, simple as that because it will happen to all of it. not just jena blame go(or whoever you want) for that one; any copper that doesnt turn green when left in the air is not pure copper, but some other alloy

You've got the wrong end of the stick. It's got nothing to do with clear coating letting you actually see copper wire oxidising, thats a nonsense, theres a legion of copper wires out there that doesn't corrode that way, telephone companies would be in hell if that were true. Jena wires do it because the insulation is fundamentally faulty.

 

[ThePredator]

Quote:

Originally Posted by qusp /img/forum/go_quote.gif anyway; i'll leave you scientists to argue about this; funny how when skeptics decide to argue against things that the actual science seems to be ignored in their argument. cryo is a process that is used in more than audio to improve the structure of metal; whether you choose not to believe it has any effect in this context is up to you and has no effect on whether I choose to use it or not. have fun

You use "improve" very loosely (i.e. incorrectly) here. Yes, it can structurally improve the resilience of some metals. Not only do these structural improvements have nothing to do with conductivity, they aren't even used on materials in electronics. The entire point of cryogenic treating metals, specifically steel, is that it converts the austenite to martensite. There is no reason it would change copper, and absolutely none that it would increase electrical conductivity.

 

[jude]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThePredator /img/forum/go_quote.gif You use "improve" very loosely (i.e. incorrectly) here. Yes, it can structurally improve the resilience of some metals. Not only do these structural improvements have nothing to do with conductivity, they aren't even used on materials in electronics. The entire point of cryogenic treating metals, specifically steel, is that it converts the austenite to martensite. There is no reason it would change copper, and absolutely none that it would increase electrical conductivity.

I can't vouch for the validity of this study, but it's an interesting read. You can find other references to this study here, here and elsewhere.

Quote:

Originally Posted by this study ....The experimental results show that deep cryogenic treatment of electrodes causes Cr and Zr to disperse and makes the grain smaller than in non-cryogenic treatment electrodes. Therefore the electrical conductivity and the thermal conductivity of deep cryogenic treated electrodes are greatly improved, which results in electrode life for spot welding hot dip galvanized steel which is clearly improved....

Here's the search query I used to find the above links (and others).

I'm not here to debate the whole issue with all of you, but only to provide some information that might be relevant in response to the post I quoted.

Again, I have no idea how valid these findings are.

 

[B00MERS00NER]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jude /img/forum/go_quote.gif I can't vouch for the validity of this study, but it's an interesting read. You can find other references to this study here, here and elsewhere. Here's the search query I used to find the above links (and others). I'm not here to debate the whole issue with all of you, but only to provide some information that might be relevant in response to the post I quoted. Again, I have no idea how valid these findings are.

That is some good stuff there, I find it interesting that the discussion in one of those links goes in depth about the impurities in metal creating/increasing electrical resistance. I can see that with the impurities that contaminate solder, along with soldering temps (too high/low) are a major cause of cold solder joints - resistance checks of cold solder joints usually will be very high in resistance.

Like Jude I too am not taking part in a debate, I'm just sharing some thoughts triggered by information shared. Take them for what they are.

 

[rembrant]

First, I find it rather interesting that I would be treated in such a manner just because I don't necessarily believe that cryo treating audio cables has any worth in our particular application. I have been reading as much as I can find on the subject. Empirical evidence for increased audio quality is non existent.

Second, there is evidence abound that the structural rigidity of some metals/alloys can be improved by this process. Again, I can't say that this would give any noticeable improvements regarding the life of the cables in our application. I not convinced that cable fatigue failure is a problem here. It certainly doesn't make economical sense for the price of these services.

My initial statement certainly wasn't made to antagonize anyone. Seeing the lengths that some of you are willing to go to increase the size of you audio phallus, I can understand your disdain for non-believers.(Now that was antagonistic.)

At this time I believe that any improvements you might gain from this process are outweighed by the cost. Certainly, in the area of audio representation, cryo treatment falls in the realm of pseudo science. If you like it. Good for you. However, you certainly can't claim that any improvements you hear are factual, rather than perceptual. You absolutely have no right to treat me with malice because we don't share the same opinion on the subject.

I can tell you that the statements made by a certain "Member Of The Trade" have insured that I or anyone I might advise will never purchase items or services from you sir. I bet you already knew that though, didn't you. Something tells me you didn't get the gullibility vibe from my first post that your customers require.

Feel free to flame away at my expense. I won't be offended. I bet you knew that too.