[DrivenUnder]

@jseaber
 
Thank you for the extremely thorough and helpful explanation. I knew I was oversimplifying things, and that this would be a basic concept to someone like you.
 
SOOOoooo....without treading on the toes of your upcoming blog post on jitter and dynamic range, are the folks who claim the Wyrd to improve the Element's sound suffering from placebo effect? If I understand your excellent explanation, barring a regulated home power supply, the USB chain should be unimproved by the Wyrd, at least as far as the Element is concerned.

 

[jseaber]

  @jseaber
 
Thank you for the extremely thorough and helpful explanation. I knew I was oversimplifying things, and that this would be a basic concept to someone like you.
 
SOOOoooo....without treading on the toes of your upcoming blog post on jitter and dynamic range, are the folks who claim the Wyrd to improve the Element's sound suffering from placebo effect? If I understand your excellent explanation, barring a regulated home power supply, the USB chain should be unimproved by the Wyrd, at least as far as the Element is concerned.

 
Yes, it's possible for a USB device like you mentioned to have real, audible benefits. That said, a shorter USB cable or a common, powered USB hub are often able to provide the same benefit. Again, it's incorrect to assume that USB +5V power is the de-facto source of noise.

 

[DrivenUnder]

My confusion deepens...these seem to be somewhat contradictory statements. Again, I'm missing something. The first statements make it sound like there would really be no benefit to reducing noise in the USB bus supplied +5V, and the second states that there would be sonic benefits.
 
I apologize if these questions are obvious or basic, but I do sincerely appreciate the information and think it speaks very highly of JDS and you personally that you're willing to to dumb it down for me. 

 
My guess is that the Wyrd (and others like it) do something other than just clean up the USB power....
 

Originally Posted by jseaber /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
Two things to think about here. First, the DAC input of 3.3VDC provides easy room for linear regulation: 5V-to-3.3V. Second, regardless of how the DAC receives +3.3VDC input (from USB +5V, or from a separate supply), most DACs contain their own, internal charge pumps to derive that negative 2.828V rail from the positive 3.3V analog supply. Yes, no matter what quality of 5V power we provide, the DAC contains a switching power supply!
 
As for Element specifically, we spent significant time evaluating the circuits. Also note that Element contains the exact same chipset and BOM utilized by ODAC RevB, which is thoroughly documented and has proven resistant to less-than-stellar USB +5V supplies (actually, ODAC RevB came from Element prototyping). In summary, there's no need to resort to a separate 5V supply.
 
Not a concern. There's an entirely different USB topic which impacts jitter and dynamic range, and matters far more than the (well regulated) 5V supply discussed above. That discussion is reserved for an upcoming blog post.

 
 

 
Yes, it's possible for a USB device like you mentioned to have real, audible benefits. That said, a shorter USB cable or a common, powered USB hub are often able to provide the same benefit. Again, it's incorrect to assume that USB +5V power is the de-facto source of noise.

 

[jseaber]

   
 

 
It's helpful to remember that this is not a black and white answer. Zoom in on any DC rail and you'll find ripple and deviations from the target voltage (USB or independent).
 
I think you originally simplified to this model...
USB +5V ---> 5V directly to DAC
 
...and assumed the following model would be superior:
Independent 5V supply --->  5V directly to DAC
 
An actual DAC supply chain looks more like this:
5V Supply ---> LC Filtration ---> Multiple 3.3V LDOs with decoupling, bypass capacitors, and PCB layout with 4-layer plane capacitance & low inductance ---> DAC 3.3V-digital and 3.3V-analog inputs with additional decoupling --> DAC internal 1.8V LDO supply and charge pump to +/- rails
 
Proper filtration and regulation means whatever noise was present at the input should be filtered out. At least in a good design. Not all designs are good!
 
So, additional supply regulation is beneficial when a circuit is subjected to noise outside of its designed regulation ability. Put another way: the quality of a DAC's regulation matters more than the power it is fed.
 

  My guess is that the Wyrd (and others like it) do something other than just clean up the USB power....

 
Correct. The differential D+/D- signal also matters.

 

[DrivenUnder]

Some obstinate part of my brain is simply rejecting this logic (or illogic).The idea that a non-USB-powered desktop amp of ANY price would benefit from additional filtering\decoupling on the USB signal side makes my blood boil. This should not happen.
 
The USB signal should arrive in whatever condition at the DAC\amp input plug and should be squeaky clean 1's and 0's when it arrives internally at the DAC. Irrespective of the format of the signal, there should be no way that the USB signal is a contributing factor to SQ unless conditions were so bad that the digital data was lost in the noise. How long have we been doing digital now?
 
I can somewhat understand if this happens with a tiny little dongle-style USB powered DAC\amp, but I just don't see why this should ever happen otherwise. At what price point can I say that regardless of the USB signal coming in, my DAC will be unaffected? Evidently $350 is not enough.
 
There....now I'm all grumpy. Time for a Cragganmore and tunes... 

 

 

[DrivenUnder]

Now that I'm relaxed and have a little nerve tonic flowing, let me state this another way....
 
It is my contention that a well designed and implemented, self-powered USB DAC should do nothing but suffer for any additional components added in the signal chain between digital source and input plug.
 
If the USB cable is too long and inducing (RF noise), then a shorter cable will help (will also help jitter, but that is a topic for another day).
 
If the DAC is asynchronous, then the 'decrapifier' or hub or whatever might even get in the way of the data stream back to the source. If it is synchronous, then your extra gadget will have introduced yet another clock to the system, which is normally not good.
 
Without changing USB cables, if you add a...
 
- iFi iPurifier
- Audioquest Jitterbug
- Uptone Audio Regen
- Schiit Wyrd
- Any Audio USB Stream Other Thing
 
....to your system and it demonstrably improves the sound, you either have....
 
- a poorly designed DAC
- a bad or too long cable or
- a psychoacoustic predilection to thinking that more money = better sound. (in this case, by demonstrable I mean the weight of your wallet)
 
Just in case this offends, I'm not trying to be offensive, especially if you have purchased one of aforementioned doo-dads. I refer back to my statement "well designed and implemented DAC". Done properly, a DAC should sneer at attempts to meddle with its signal with gadgetry. It may, however, reward you for providing it with a better source in the first place. I remain to be convinced that any of the gadgets listed can actually be perceived by the listener as an improved source, unless the clock in your source is outside the USB specs. Were this the case, it should be able to be shown via testing. Even our good friends with the S name are clear....this Schiit probably doesn't do anything. Here is their quote...
 

There’s no reason this should make any system sound better. Although we can measure the difference in USB power supply noise, it really shouldn’t matter if the bits make it through. Despite this, some listeners have said that there are sonic benefits from using Wyrd. Us, we remain Swiss on the matter—we don’t do the hard sell by promising sonic nirvana. http://schiit.com/products/wyrd

 
Whew....OK, that is off my chest. All this to say, if your DAC\amp runs off of the power supplied by the USB bus, it is sub-optimal. I did not get a super clear indication from John if the Element does or not, but there was this statement....

 An actual DAC supply chain looks more like this: 5V Supply ---> LC Filtration ---> Multiple 3.3V LDOs with decoupling, bypass capacitors, and PCB layout with 4-layer plane capacitance & low inductance ---> DAC 3.3V-digital and 3.3V-analog inputs with additional decoupling --> DAC internal 1.8V LDO supply and charge pump to +/- rails (by @jseaber)

 
From what I read in the statement, the DAC is does seem to be running on USB bus power...

 As for Element specifically, we spent significant time evaluating the circuits. Also note that Element contains the exact same chipset and BOM utilized by ODAC RevB, which is thoroughly documented and has proven resistant to less-than-stellar USB +5V supplies (actually, ODAC RevB came from Element prototyping). In summary, there's no need to resort to a separate 5V supply. (by @jseaber)

In my opinion, regardless of whether or not you can hear it, the Element appears to be compromised in the DAC power stage. I don't 100% agree that there is no reason to resort to a separate 5V supply, especially if it is so easy to come by on the PCB. I think the reason is plain for all to see...USB power can be crap for many reasons, and despite the cleanup done in the DAC,  if you use USB bus power to run the DAC, you have rendered your circuit susceptible to noise.
 
For the record, I'm not an electronics engineer, and have probably oversimplified a great number of things in my attempt to understand this and provide some clarity. I welcome having holes poked in my theory, and would not take offense if I was told I'm all wet.... I've learned a ton today, and that makes me happy. I'm also happy to take delivery of my Element soon, as I believe the reviewers when they say it sounds fantastic, and it's gonna look very nice on my desk.

 

[grizzlybeast]

Not to derail all of this tech talk but......
 
This THiNg sounds Great WitH plenty of PoWeR. 
 
SHout out to JDS LABS FOR PUTTING OUT A GOOD PRODUCT!

 

[jseaber]

@DrivenUnder:
 

  Without changing USB cables, if you add a...
 
- iFi iPurifier
- Audioquest Jitterbug
- Uptone Audio Regen
- Schiit Wyrd
- Any Audio USB Stream Other Thing
 
....to your system and it demonstrably improves the sound, you either have....
 
- a poorly designed DAC
- a bad or too long cable or
- a psychoacoustic predilection to thinking that more money = better sound. (in this case, by demonstrable I mean the weight of your wallet)
 
......
 
For the record, I'm not an electronics engineer, and have probably oversimplified a great number of things in my attempt to understand this and provide some clarity. I welcome having holes poked in my theory, and would not take offense if I was told I'm all wet.... I've learned a ton today, and that makes me happy. I'm also happy to take delivery of my Element soon, as I believe the reviewers when they say it sounds fantastic, and it's gonna look very nice on my desk.

 
Or, you have a prominent characteristic impedance mismatch between the USB host and your USB cable and/or DAC, and the differential data signal arrives at the DAC accompanied by excessive wave reflections, irrespective of the 5V power source, so those 0's and 1's are no longer perfect. Changing cables or adding a "purifier" alters wave reflections. A longer article on this topic will come later!

 

[Bighappy]

  Not to derail all of this tech talk but......
 
This THiNg sounds Great WitH plenty of PoWeR. 
 
SHout out to JDS LABS FOR PUTTING OUT A GOOD PRODUCT!

 
I wholeheartedly agree ...LOVE MINE AS WELL!!!!!

 

[grizzlybeast]

first impressions of my element​

The volume pot and build should be an example to others. Some may find it big but I love it. 
 

SOUND

I will give a summary, but wish I had more headphones to test it with. There is tons of extension in the bass and highs. The bass has an appreciable amount of sub, mid, and upper bass that is fairly textured yet not as tight as maybe some totl stuff yet very tangible. Compared to the pulse infinity the upper bass and mid bass have more punch but it's not as solid and tight. I do find it a tad digital but detailed. The mids have a velvety texture to them and are quite full and very enjoyable but they aren't super snappy or liquid. There is a slight (very slight) haziness or something I can't describe well right now. Over all I get a very balanced yet musical sound that is detailed and textured but not liquid and black in background. The space around the instruments are okay and the sound stage seems like it needs to yawn a bit. The transparency is not the cleanest I have heard (haven't heard much really high end gear) but it's good enough to keep me satisfied. I had the original odac and don't remember it sounding this good but the balance seems similar yet with better bass and treble extension. I still find it can pull out my details well I just think if it was more snappy in the mid range with a blacker background it may do even better. For it's price it is excellent though. It reminds me of my cayin ha3 I had in technical abilities but without the tube sound. The highs I have read as being harsh or hard somewhere but that remains to be discovered for me. In fact I like how the highs extend but don't abrade. I remember (old memory) the bushmaster mkII I had being more liquid sounding with rounder, more natural vinyl like sound but less musical and balanced in the highs(darker), probably less detailed as well.
 
The power on this thing makes me seem like the specs are wrong in our favor. Or maybe other gear I had was lying. I can't go all the way up on my ZMF OMNI on high gain no matter what the song. It's a simple, musical, and powerful beast. It makes for a very musical pairing with a balanced sound, full - ripe bass, sweet full mids, and detailed extended highs.Those that worry about bass being negatively effected by their gear need not worry at all. The kick drums are very firm and carved out and sub bass is readily present. 
 
This is just from a couple of hours back and forth between my x infinity(no lps) SE out put. I think its an extremely easy recommendation. 

 

[jayeshrc]

wow, i didn't think iem's would benefit from an amp/dac but ******* i was wrong. There's this lowish thump in the background of Cynic's Nunc Stans that i love listening to on other gear because i feel it in my jaw but it never had the same effect when i used my klipsch x10.
listened to it with the element-x10 just now and holy ****, its there! not as much as with the other headphones but so much nicer sounding than before! 
Its like theres now enough space for everything to have its own presence. Very nice stuff
 
I dont use an EQ on any of my headphones/iems anymore. just let it play through the element.

 

[Manhole]

I got my element a few days ago and I am concerned about the amount of channel imbalance that I am hearing at low volumes.  I have several headphones that I have been trying (at low gain): Oppo PM-3 (~25ohms), Beyerdynamic DT770 pro (250ohms) and Beyerdynamic DT880 (600 ohm).  Obviously I can listen at higher volumes with the DT880's, but I actually prefer to use the oppos because it has a more listenable treble over time for me.
 
With the DT880s I am still only able to listen at about 30-35% of the volume range, and even then it's very loud to me.  With the oppos I am down into the 10-15% volume range.  It's in this range and below that I hear the right side rapidly drop completely out compared to the left channel until it hits 0 where both channels are obviously silent.
 
I recognize that having very low impedance headphones with an amp like this may just be a bad pairing for a person with my issues/tastes (low volume listening), but I wanted to double check before I return it because it's an amazing piece of equipment, and I love the company.
 
An extra note for context is that I run an odac to a schiit asgard 2 at work and I do not have this imbalance issue with the same headphones (in roughly the same volume ranges).  I also have an odac/o2 combo that I will try tonight to see if I have the same issues, but I was using it previously and didn't notice any problems.  This is what makes me think maybe it's the unit?
 
Anyway, my compliments on the gorgeous and generally excellent Element.  I am hoping I can make it work.

 

[sheldaze]

  I got my element a few days ago and I am concerned about the amount of channel imbalance that I am hearing at low volumes.  I have several headphones that I have been trying (at low gain): Oppo PM-3 (~25ohms), Beyerdynamic DT770 pro (250ohms) and Beyerdynamic DT880 (600 ohm).  Obviously I can listen at higher volumes with the DT880's, but I actually prefer to use the oppos because it has a more listenable treble over time for me.
 
With the DT880s I am still only able to listen at about 30-35% of the volume range, and even then it's very loud to me.  With the oppos I am down into the 10-15% volume range.  It's in this range and below that I hear the right side rapidly drop completely out compared to the left channel until it hits 0 where both channels are obviously silent.
 
I recognize that having very low impedance headphones with an amp like this may just be a bad pairing for a person with my issues/tastes (low volume listening), but I wanted to double check before I return it because it's an amazing piece of equipment, and I love the company.
 
An extra note for context is that I run an odac to a schiit asgard 2 at work and I do not have this imbalance issue with the same headphones (in roughly the same volume ranges).  I also have an odac/o2 combo that I will try tonight to see if I have the same issues, but I was using it previously and didn't notice any problems.  This is what makes me think maybe it's the unit?
 
Anyway, my compliments on the gorgeous and generally excellent Element.  I am hoping I can make it work.

Are you sure you're running in the lower of the two gain settings?
 
Try clicking the gain button on the back to be certain. In low gain, you should have fairly good balance while still at low volume.

 

[Manhole]

I am definitely using low gain.  I originally thought I was being forced into lower volume ranges due to the gain so I clicked it and the volume got louder, heh.  Appreciate the thought though.

 

[canthearyou]

Mine has imbalance at very low volume. But I never listen to it that low.