[KZEE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by donunus /img/forum/go_quote.gif Wonder if anyone here can say if the wa3+ is not as good as the standard woo3 for high impedance cans. Is the 3+ just an improvement for low impedance cans and the same for the high impedance or does it improve the sound on all cans?

Jamato8 would probably best qualified to answer that question... he originally had a WA3, and then he modded it by rewiring the input tubes to run in parallel (which is basically the biggest difference between the 3 and the 3+), and maybe he tried out some high and low Z cans with each configuration.

 

[Vandal]

This is a dilemma that's been eating away at me. I have the LD Micro Tube which is a hybrid amp.

Since I haven't heard either a pure tube or SS amp I cannot decide between a LD MK IV or a MK V as my first proper amp over the micro tube.

I cannot decide which of the 2 schools of sound I'll like more - analytical or musical. Is this something that any of you have faced before? I like detail and a revealing top end and I wouldn't like hunting around for tubes; at the same time there's an allure to old school that I feel I may end up spending again sometime down the line acquiring the "other" type of amp.

 

[Happy Camper]

Revealing and detail is good to a point. When you start hearing the mixing errors or overlay of tracks, those goals become obsessive and detract from the musical experience for some. An ss amp with silver ICs and 701s will sound sterile with anemic bass but will be about the best sonic microscope you can have. If that fullfills your listening tastes, there are methods to get there.

Tube amps with quality parts can sound every bit as revealing and detailed as ss amps. They synergize well with digital sources. The focus of our hobby is to put together a rig that fits our taste. As the op mentioned in his first post, there is a magic about tubes missing in ss amps. A vibrancy of tone, a feel of the music being alive (my interp.).

I don't have the Woo but have enjoyed everyone's thrill and tube rolling experiences.

Enjoy!

 

[Vandal]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Happy Camper /img/forum/go_quote.gif Revealing and detail is good to a point. When you start hearing the mixing errors or overlay of tracks, those goals become obsessive and detract from the musical experience for some. An ss amp with silver ICs and 701s will sound sterile with anemic bass but will be about the best sonic microscope you can have. If that fullfills your listening tastes, there are methods to get there. Tube amps with quality parts can sound every bit as revealing and detailed as ss amps. They synergize well with digital sources. The focus of our hobby is to put together a rig that fits our taste. As the op mentioned in his first post, there is a magic about tubes missing in ss amps. A vibrancy of tone, a feel of the music being alive (my interp.). I don't have the Woo but have enjoyed everyone's thrill and tube rolling experiences. Enjoy!

Thanks! I believe you answered me with the statement in bold. Its just that I haven't tasted either pure SS or tubes so I do not know where my actual taste lies. Also since I've never heard the anomalies you mention (because my equipment isn't good enough) I do not know whether I'll like it or not.

Trial and error will be costly won't it? Sadly (or happily) I have no other option.

You said tubes can be just as revealing. Would the LD MK IV SE be one of the options? Or am I better off saving for something higher end like the WA 3+? Is it definitely better with all cans or better with some?

 

[Happy Camper]

I can't comment on the Woo or the LD because I've not had the opportunity to hear one. I am in a couple months. I enjoy reading about the Woo product because I like the industrial build and they have a good rep. here and Jamato helping ala Earl with SP is a learning experience.

As far as your equipment, the 650s should be able to reveal these things. An amp should be able to as well. I'm using an OTL tube amp with a 2c51 gain tube. There may be a more detailed tube but my limited experience hasn't come across it. Check out Pink Floyd's Eclipse, last 30 seconds. You can hear a muzak version of the Beatles "Ticket to Ride" in the background. If your amp isn't picking it up, your missing nothing because it's background noise or your missing the last bit of detail available. I use my pc with a 15 yr old dac and my ipod with 320k and could hear it with both my amps.

If you want to have an amp for a while and want it to handle both high and low imp. hps, it is worth it to buy as much as you can. Everyone has their level of gear that meets their needs. Some just don't see the value in an amp or have never heard better than their own gear and think it vanity. I see it as a key ingredient in the recipe. When you buy something like the HD650s, you are wasting their potential by not providing equipment that can get the most out of them.

Organize a mini meet in your area to check out gear. If you can make a road trip out of it, go to one. It will save you the buy and try treadmill. It will also allow you to determine your point of diminishing returns. Find out why some are willing to spend the levels they do for the gear they have. It might not be worth it to you or you will be smitten with what can be and save for it.

And then there's DIY.

 

[Tyson]

Tube amps are simply better than SS amps. SS amps reproduce clean signals, tube amps reproduce music. Welcome to the dark side

 

[Golden Monkey]

When I initially built out my system, I was going for as much detail and resolution as I could get, and I got there, but yeah...there was a cost. Musicality and tonality suffered, and poor sources were revealed mercilessly. I found that I kept obsessing over why things didn't sound "quite right" instead of just being wowed by my music. In the end it was because I was hearing the studio equipment more than the performances.

I definitely don't feel like I'm missing any detail with the Woo and the 650's compared to the SS MKV. Yes, it SOUNDS different, but I prefer the authority and tonality I'm getting with the Woo. The MKV was very clean and analytical, and had an amazing soundstage, but careful selection of tubes gave me those same properties I liked about the MKV. The Siemens 7308 or 6922 are fantastic with the microdetails and airiness at the top end.

I had also never heard a quality tube amp with the HD650's and figured the MKV was as good as it could get, but boy was I wrong. I mean, they sounded great on the MKV because they are a great sounding phone, BUT the power the Woo delivers them is in a whole new realm. The MKV gave lots of resolution and soundstage and had a lot of dynamic overhead (for an SS amp), but the phones tended to sound slow at times and dark. I could see how people feel the HD650 is veiled in that case. The MKV was phenominal with the Denon D2000's though, and I still wish I had both sometimes. The 650/WA3+ on the other hand has little to find fault with (actually...I can't find any, lol). The phones are still warm and lush sounding, but sound much faster and clean with great bass detail and a sparkling and airy top end...and everything is in control. Lows are coherent, impactful, and detailed, highs are crisp and bright without any sibilance. There's no sense of veil, no slowness or muddiness, and the dynamics are unbelieveable. Those phones scale like no other, and if you build a system around them it's well worth it. Seriously...the people out there that have never heard the HD650 with an OTL tube amp that think that the high end Senns are veiled, too dark, lack detail, and are rolled off at the top are either a) not amping them properly, or b) AKG K701 fans.

The only thing for me that the Woo needs desperately is a recapping with better ones (Hovland, Black Gates, or Mundorf), IMO. The stock ones just haven't opened up the image as much as I'd like, but I just haven't had the time or dollaz to address that yet.

 

[Tyson]

If you consider that tube amps are generally better at reproducing instrument and vocal tone, in a very real sense it means they are more accurate than SS amps.

 

[Golden Monkey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyson /img/forum/go_quote.gif If you consider that tube amps are generally better at reproducing instrument and vocal tone, in a very real sense it means they are more accurate than SS amps.

I also think of it like this, but this may just be me:

(most) musical instruments, human voices, turntables, tubes, microphones and headphones (well, any drivers) and the like are all "analog" devices - they all produce true analog wave forms, either electrically or sonically. Keeping everything in the "analog" domain as much as possible will yield the truest reproduction. Electronic instruments, opamps, digital equipment, and the like not only produce digital waveforms (stepped increments) and "on/off" 1's and 0's, but eventually have to go through some sort of analog conversion anyway for output. There's less inherent "naturalness" to this method of musical reproduction, but it can all sound great in an all digital setup...it comes down to philosophy and choice I guess. I'm not having the best time putting this concept into words, so if that sounds like crap or makes no sense, just ignore me, lol...I'm not feeling so hot, and can't exlain myself too well today.

 

[Vandal]

Golden Monkey, Happy Camper - you guys are marvels at explaining stuff...I am so moved by the explanations and it all makes perfect sense. Of course the brute driving power of tubes is another huge plus to consider; but seriously - you guys cleared up a lot of doubts floating around a newbie like me about to make his first "big" purchase.

I'm thinking seriously about a good tube amp in the region of 500 to 600$ US; I want to spend big once but forever have great sound

 

[scootermafia]

The long and the short of it is this:
Tubes produce euphonics, or good distortion...sounds that are pleasing to the ear, if missing the accuracy that a transistor brings. Solid state amps - their distortion is unpleasant - that "analytical, cold sound" that some people complain about when talking about solid state equipment is the bad sound effects that can come with solid state.
I will admit - my tube amp rarely ever produces unpleasant noises, but it does not always do certain genres justice - stuff like hard rock, electronic, and rap can lack definition and the sharp, edgy sound that I like from this sort of stuff. However, the sound can get a bit harsh on my M3. The HD650 is not inherently a very bright headphone though, so this is still not a bad pairing at all for 90% of headphones. You should consider an M3 over another Little Dot, especially if you get a chance to hear them...I can vouch for the M3 being a good performer and a good value, whoever builds it for you, or if you build your own, or whatever.
Still, while my tube amp is not ideal for 100% of my listening, it is pretty smooth, non-fatiguing, and natural sounding (my Darkvoice 336SE). If you're looking to get tubey for not too much cash and have lots of tube rolling options, it's not a bad amp, but it may require a quick soldering job to fix the hum that some tubes have with it (a permanent fix, as opposed to finding just the right tube) and its power switch as of now is not particularly durable and breaks easily during shipment, leading to a dead amp until you can cut the dead power switch off and wire in a new one, or simply wire it up to be always on (like I did...just connect the leads). I give this warning to any potential tube buyer so they know.
It's a hell of a value too...while I love my M3 I am still amazed and how good the 336 sounds...certain genres of music just have this thick, tasty tone to it. Really anything with warm vocals and natural instrumentation versus stuff with synthesized sounds is ideal for tube. It all depends on what you're looking for and what you listen to.

I guess you could say that it's like comparing real sugar (tubes) to Splenda (solid state). Sure, Splenda is scientifically many, many times sweeter and more potent than real sugar. But it's also an unnatural, manufactured product tainted by science...there is something missing about it. Maybe the fact that it doesn't have the tasty dangerousness of real sugar. Tubes are the real deal, and while I bought a solid state to get away with the tubey sound that ruins some of my favorite music for me, I still have a longing for the tube goodness for other songs where the midrange and vocals just sound deflated.
So, I'm keeping both, and I'm going to roll and mod the 336 into submission this weekend once my soldering equipment arrives.

 

[ArmAndHammer]

Is the Darkvoice a hybrid or all tube? If the later how do the hybrids fit in there as far as sound? I have the LD I+ but have never heard a SS or all tube amp so I cannot compare.

 

[Vandal]

The M3 is an SS amp right? And its a DIY right? Would it be a better option that the WA3+?

 

[Golden Monkey]

The DV 336 is all tube. Nice amp too, if you're looking, but since I've never heard a hybrid (only pure SS or tube), I don't really have a basis for comparison, A&H.

Scootermafia - spot on, and good advice too. All hail euphony!

Vandal - Couldn't really say which would be the better option for you...you'd have to listen to both SS andd tube amps, and decide which character you like better. I was convinced I wanted "clean, analytical, revealing, and detailed", so I went with SS at first. I thought tubes + HD650 would be too much of a good thing, so to speak, and I'd get this slow, mushy, thick sound, like someone poured honey in my ears, but it turned out to not be the case at all. My advice would be to try both types of amps, if possible, and decide which you like better...you don't have to necessarily listen to the amps you're considering to just gauge the qualities and characteristics of both types of amplification. Once you've figured out which you want to go with, try different amps of that type to get a pool of likely candidates within your budget (and don't forget to factor in shiping costs!). Of course, if trying them out isn't possible, you may just have to bite the bullet and BUY one, try if for a while, sell it at a slight loss to you, and try again. That'll cost you more in the long run, but you'll get to experiment with different amps. If you DO go with a tube amp, be prepared to spend a lot more in the long run as you fine-tune that amp with tube rolling. I never wanted a tube amp before because aside from thinking I'd not like the sound, I didn't want to dive into spending a lot of time maintaining it (which has come to a sum total of ZERO hours, lol), and I didn't want to blow more cash on tubes (chasing that perfect combo, lol). Here I am, with a $500 amp, and $500 worth of tubes later...when I told myself pre-head-fi that there was NO WAY I'd ever spend more than $300 on an amp, which I was convinced I'd never need anyway...*sigh*...ignorance WAS bliss...

 

[Happy Camper]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vandal /img/forum/go_quote.gif Golden Monkey, Happy Camper - you guys are marvels at explaining stuff...I am so moved by the explanations and it all makes perfect sense. Of course the brute driving power of tubes is another huge plus to consider; but seriously - you guys cleared up a lot of doubts floating around a newbie like me about to make his first "big" purchase. I'm thinking seriously about a good tube amp in the region of 500 to 600$ US; I want to spend big once but forever have great sound

Thank you.

I would guestimate the majority of us have bought blind. I bought both my amps blind. The home amp was a biggie. Bought it and really second guessed myself until I was able to hear the amp I was comparing it to. I would have been happy with either one as it turns out sonically.

My ability to tube roll (.....a whole lotta lumps. Ihhhhhhhh...) was key in my decision.

The nice thing about meets is that you can hear an upgrade attached to your gear to see how good it can sound. If you feel the increase isn't worth it, your set. Trust me though, as you have more disposable income, you'll hear something to make your ears twitter. Stats are my current ga ga but I'm not gonna do it. If the new Senns are as good as initial hype, I'll jump for joy at not having to get another amp and may sell the 701s. I'll see the last nail in the lid before they get my RS-1s. Best ipod hp goin (apologies to you UE-11 guys).