[redshifter]

with an amp (sr-71) my er4s aren't shrill, but then again the signal i'm supplying is very high quality.

one thing i have found is that after about 3 minutes of listening the ety's sound becomes much richer. either this is some strange warm up period or psychoacoustic adjustment to the ety house sound after listening to my full sized cans.

 

[vranswer]

My list of ER4 adjectives/descriptors:

Thin

Thin

...uh, wait, I'll think of some more...


But seriously, if a person, random or otherwise, likes Etys' sound then I think it's awesome and they should enjoy every minute of it. I had the ER4 nirvana for a while but lost it over time. The seal I got isn't subject to debate - I never understood the whole "they look funny sticking out of your ears" argument, because I easily had them inserted all the way to the 'bend' in the transducer. In other words, you could only see wires coming out of my ears, and I got the full isolation effect and best bass the things could dial up.

Unfortunately, for me it just more and more wasn't enough, especially after hearing phones like UM2 and E5. Don't know what I would do if I could afford to plug in some UE5Cs.

 

[warpdriver]

The whole tone of the "comparison" sounded a bit like dumping on the product.

A good comparison would talk about the pros and cons...whenever I compare two products, I try to emphasize the strengths they each bring to the table. As Etymotic products are very popular amongst audiophiles, it's clear that there are some strengths to the ER4. After all, they are well rated by a lot of professional reviewers and audiophiles alike.

I have no particular illusions about my particular ER4, it does have a thinner sound than some other IEM's, but I know their strengths too. But when people are saying they are shrill, and don't match up to my experiences, I'm bound to call them on it. One of the strengths of the ER4 in my mind is the sparkling detail *without* shrillness. Show me a recording where they sound shrill and I'll show you 1) either you didn't seal correctly 2) a poorly mixed or shrill recording. Also, I really like how linear the frequency response is....the mids are actually well balanced with the highs. The high end reminds me of the DT880, a headphone that manages to sound bright, but the notes are clearly defined, and never harsh. Harshness is a form of distortion. The ER4 does not display what I consider harshness. "Hotness" is not "harshness". I listen to violins, and many jazz albums, and it's rare that I find the ER4 to be harsh, only when the recording is a bit flawed.

But I do know that there is no perfect headphone. Even reference quality headphones like HD650's have a sound that may not be considered neutral to some.

When one reports they are doing a comparison, I pay attention to what they did to get a seal. Getting a good seal with always be an issue. I would speculate that for some people, they probably never achieve the optimum seal. I tried different techniques with different results. Just jamming them deep into your ear is actually less effective to me than using foams and the stalks angled upward into the ear. Doing so, I get a great seal and they are not even inserted very deeply at all. But expending the effort to find out how to get a good seal is no joke, it has a very significant effect. Without doing so, the results are completely unreliable. The SEAL IS EVERYTHING.

One headphone that I find the exact opposite is something like the Shure E5. Personally, I really dislike their sound signature, it's almost the opposite of the ER4. It's an overly warm headphone with pronounced bass. The frequency response curve looks like the side of a hill. If you are coming from a E5, then the ER4 will be a shock to you. Like steping out of warm sauna into a cold shower.

edit:

I also tried the different sample tips that Etymotics sent me, and yes, they also change the sound signature. The Large Black foam tips are *huge*, but once you squish them down, they are still quite comfortable, and they are an improvement over the standard foams. I also tried the Shure foam tips, cut them down as the poster above mentioned, and again they sounded different. It goes to show the fit is highly variable. Not only is the bass affected some way, but the balance of the mids/treble changes yet again. I'm going to stick with the standard foam tips, the tri-flanges are too lean sounding, the standard foams are still bright, but have a nice even mid/treble linearity, and the cut down foams are best but I prefer the slightly more forward standard foam sound.

 

[random person]

Warpdriver, I read your post carefully and I do believe we are having a semantics problem, because when I use the term "harsh" I do not mean that I am hearing distortion per se -- the notes and the signal are clear, but because of the forward high mids and treble you need to run the phones a bit louder to get the low end to come forward at all, and as a result the treble sounds artifically high and to my ears a bit irritating. As I have said, I've experienced this before with speakers as expensive as $7,000 the pair -- it's not distortion per se, but rather a problem with balance.

So, as I think about it, I definitely think the correct term I should have used is "hot" rather than "harsh," as you put it, or perhaps "too bright" (which my ears also find irritating.) If the term "harsh" implies distortion well then I can well understand why I seem to have incurred the wrath of ER4P lovers everywhere! There certainly is no distortion, but rather a very different balance from other IEMs and certainly it sounds completely different than my reference home system, which is my benchmark. I don't expect any canalphone to remotely come close to a ridiculously expensive loudspeaker system, but I do have some expectations about the overall tonal balance.

As for the seal -- what can I say? I'm sure I could have gotten it better, but I am also very experienced with these things. I was, after all, standing in the middle of a very noisy place and could hear NOTHING but the music from the 'Pod -- I had excellent isolation. I imagine though that any preferences for one canalphone over any other can be dismissed via the simple "oh you must have gotten a poor fit." Indeed, I've used this argument myself! But as I now look at it, it's kind of like telling someone who doesn't like a certain type of music that there must be something wrong with their hearing. To be sure, that may be true, but on the other hand it is also unnecessarily dismissive. We all have our preferences, after all -- else there would be no competing brands, and we'd all have the same equipment. And some of us do hear things that others do not, good and bad, out of the same equipment. And to repeat, my primary surprise out of the ER4P was their thin, lean quality, and lack of richness. They lack that certain visceral quality that I have come to expect in music. (I rejected Wilson Watt Puppy speakers -- at $16,000 the pair -- for the same reason. Great for classical, but not impactful enough for other genres,IMHO. Are they great speakers? Absolutely! Would they be right for me or others like me? No.)

As for your comments about the Shure E5 (which I have not heard) -- maybe your seal was bad?

(Just trying to lighten things up around here!)

 

[warpdriver]

Quote:

Originally Posted by random person Warpdriver, I read your post carefully and I do believe we are having a semantics problem, because when I use the term "harsh" I do not mean that I am hearing distortion per se -- the notes and the signal are clear, but because of the forward high mids and treble you need to run the phones a bit louder to get the low end to come forward at all, and as a result the treble sounds artifically high and to my ears a bit irritating.

Understood. Since balance is severely affected by the seal, that's why I harp on about the seal. It's hard to make a accurate assessment of the balance without getting a seal, that's why I have a problem with any review that calls out bad balance but seal is questionable.

Quote:

As for your comments about the Shure E5 (which I have not heard) -- maybe your seal was bad? (Just trying to lighten things up around here!)

haha..Touche!!

 

[fsrenduro]

Quote:

Originally Posted by random person Also, my seal was not great, although decent enough if I held them in with my hands to simulate a better seal.

If you hadn't said this in your intial posting then your comment about saying 'you had a bad seal' is dismissive would be right on. Everything I have commented about stems from this one line. I'm was not trying to defend Ety's so much as I was trying qualify the circumstances of your evaluation. Had you said the same thing about any other IEM I would have pointed out the same thing.

 

[dmt1]

I think sound signature is huge here. I've owned both the Ety 4P and the UE5C--and I really didn't like the UE5C's, to the point that I upgraded to the UE10PRO (Now I'm in nirvana, which is why I don't post much around here anymore--the UE10PRO's are incredible).

I love the Ety 4P's--my favorite noncustom IEM. They aren't perfect, but many of their flaws can be tweaked. The lows on the UE5C's overpower the phone IMHO--but if you like alot of bass (and many people do), this phone will work great for you. I had to EQ the UE5C substantially before I could get it where I liked it--and for me, this made the UE5C unreasonable for a portable setup.

Random is coming from UE5C's to ety's, and didn't like the ety's--I'm not surprised at all, given the fact she loves the sound signature of the UE5C's, and having had them for a while, she's tuned into their sound--going from UE5C's to Ety's is going to be quite a shock. In fact, I would have been knocked over backwards if she had written she loved the Ety's--the ety's would require a long period of adjustment, coming from the UE5C's.

On the other hand, I had used the ety's for a long, long time, switched to the UE5C's, and never could get past the bass (Fortunately, UE let me upgrade to the UE10's, and my upgraditis has been cured. The only other phone I'd consider at this point is the triple driver Westone's, and I may get those some day when my UE's bite the dust--but I'm so happy with the UE's, I won't consider replacing them until they die).

Bottom line is I don't find RP's findings disturbing or surprising--I'd expect similar findings from anyone who loves the UE5's and tries the Ety 4Ps. There has been a overgeneralization on the boards, which I still believe has a grain or two of truth to it with consideration to the UE offerings--if you're coming from the Shure sound, you'll probably be happier with UE5C's; if you're coming from Ety4P's, you'll probably be happier with the UE10PRO's. I'm willing to bet three dollars and twelve cents, that if RP tried the Shure E5's, she'd still prefer her UE5C's, but she'd prefer the Shures significantly over the Ety's.

 

[random person]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fsrenduro If you hadn't said this in your intial posting then your comment about saying 'you had a bad seal' is dismissive would be right on. Everything I have commented about stems from this one line. I'm was not trying to defend Ety's so much as I was trying qualify the circumstances of your evaluation. Had you said the same thing about any other IEM I would have pointed out the same thing.

You're right, of course. But I was overstating the situation,just to be fair to the phones, as in fact my seal was pretty good for an off the shelf phone, just not what i was getting from my customs. My fault for putting in too much of a caveat and thereby damaging the validity of my comments.

Anyway, are we all friends now?

And Hi dmt1! I was SO hoping you would see this thread, because as you can imagine I was thinking of you when I posted it. I considered just PM'g you instead of doing this post and in retrospect I should have -- you're the only one who has ever understood me!

And you were right -- as you predicted, I didn't like the Etys, coming off the UE5c. They are totally different beasts! I am very glad you are loving your UE10Pros! And how is your surgical practice going?

 

[warpdriver]

dmt1, it's reassuring that even once you reach that lofty summit known as Mount UE10, you can still have love for ER4's. Seems the ER4 isn't as bad as some people make them out to be. It's nice to hear a comparison from somebody who can truly compare the ER4/UE5/UE10. With the UE10 as a undisputable reference point, it really does bring to light the relative deficiences of the various headphones.

 

[rx7_fan]

Well UE-10 might not be un-disputable reference point, lets not forget Sensaphonics 2x =)

 

[dmt1]

RP: I am busy beyond belief--another reason I only check in here sporadically. Not complaining though--it's good to be busy!! I feel guilty though--using the UE10PRO's with an ipod shuffle at the gym now; heck, I bet the UE's weigh more than the Shuffle....Now my phones are almost worth ten times as much as my primary source--I feel a collective shudder going through the hardcore headfiers! It's still an unbeatable setup, for me anyway.

Warpdriver: I still love the Ety's, I'd take them over the Shure E5's any day of the week--it's my favorite noncustom IEM, and by a large margin. I haven't heard some of the newer noncustom IEM's though, such as Shure, Ety, and UE's new offerings. But I honestly could see someone preferring the Ety4P's to a custom IEM, based on the sound signature of the custom IEM.

I really don't think RP is trying to bash the Ety's though; just giving her honest opinion. Even I find the Ety's a tad bright, especially as you dial up the volume, but for me, it's a minor issue (I have yet to find the perfect IEM, but the UE10's are close enough for me), and the Ety's detail and clarity more than make up for what is for me a minor blemish. For others though, it's a glaring deficiency of epic proportions, similar to having a heated corkscrew jammed in your ear, then slowly twisted.

I had a pretty good idea what I was going to read in RP's first post before I read it, knowing how much she loves the UE5c's, and their sound signature. As an unabashed etyphile, it took me awhile to come around to the fact that some people truly like other phones better than Ety's; I love the sound of the ety's so much, it took time for me to realize that not everyone is knocked out by it (Ety's were the first IEM that gave me a "wow, HS, that sounds great!!!!", and the only one I've tried that's done that besides the UE10PRO's). I really, really, dislike the Shure E5's, and I'm not a huge fan of the UE5C's either, but that doesn't mean they're bad phones; they're great phones--they're just bad for me. RP is just sitting on the other side of the fence--doesn't make anyone right or wrong (well, maybe the ety lovers are just a tad bit righter

).

 

[jeffc]

Quote:

Originally Posted by warpdriver dmt1, it's reassuring that even once you reach that lofty summit known as Mount UE10, you can still have love for ER4's. Seems the ER4 isn't as bad as some people make them out to be. It's nice to hear a comparison from somebody who can truly compare the ER4/UE5/UE10. With the UE10 as a undisputable reference point, it really does bring to light the relative deficiences of the various headphones.

I don't know about calling the UE10 very lofty. I own both the ER4S and UE10. They're both not perfect.

For minmally miced recordings, the ER4S's are very good. Although the soundstage is 'in your head,' the equalization of the ER4S's makes the music seem like the music is on a stage and I'm listening from one of the seats in the audience. On these same recordings, the UE10 almost sound congested. However, for studio-mixed music, the ER4S tend to be bright, almost shrill. For these recordings, the UE10's shine. This is just a consequence of how studio produced music is recorded and mixed. Each track is recorded close miced: it captures all of the detail that is not present in a minimally miced recordings. Many instruments can sound shrill if you listen too close to it. Which is better, minimal micing or close micing? I tend to prefer the minimal micing---these recordings are very "holographic" on loudspeakers. (Which is harder to do? Minimal micing. It usually means that you can't overdub. So a mistake means you start again...)

I tend to use the UE10's more: not because it intrinsically sounds better or worse than the ER4S's, but because I don't need to carry an amp and because it is easier to use (it takes me less than five seconds to pop the UE10's on or off, it takes me a while to get a good fit with the ER4S's)

I do wish that the music industry would standardize on how to produce music. As a consequence, this would standardize on how to playback music also. Kinda makes you wonder what "High Fidelity" really means. (Fidelity comes from the Latin meaning true---true to what?)

 

[random person]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmt1 For others though, it's a glaring deficiency of epic proportions, similar to having a heated corkscrew jammed in your ear, then slowly twisted. .

Yes, that's it exactly! Like I said, you're the only person who's ever really understood me!

I too have gone to the dark side -- the Shuffle that is. I use my big Pod in the car and on airplanes, my Mini for weight training workouts and such, but for running the Shuffle just RULES!! Talk about Team Minimalism!

For a while there I thought this thread would degrade into something like those earlier IEM threads that got just way out of hand, with horrible personal insults and all sorts of nastiness. Ahh, for the good old days!

 

[warpdriver]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffc I don't know about calling the UE10 very lofty.

Now you're making me feel bad. They are "lofty" for me, as I probably won't ever make the leap of faith to spend that much on them.

I did learn something in this thread, chances are that I would dislike the UE5's...as they are probably closer to the Shure E5's sound signature which I think are pretty mediocre for their price.

 

[rx7_fan]

rp and dtm1 are you two husband and wife? I swear, I've never seen two people get along so well...

P.S.
still waiting for my UE5c, darn those people at UE. They are taking so long, it's been 7 days. I'm still waiting for Mike to e-mail me so I can go over there and pick it up... *sigh* To make matter worst, I sold all my headphones/equipment to get the UE5c, so now I'm using stock apple earphones

for a week now..