It's official: mp3 is better than MD
Sep 10, 2002 at 3:12 AM Post #16 of 23
Quote:

Originally posted by MacDEF
As for people uploading ATRAC files to the web and then urging people to compare them with MP3... remember that those ATRAC files are *not* standard ATRAC. They're low-bitrate NetMD ATRAC files.


The output was from a standard MD recorder using ATRAC v 4.5 (1 step below type-R)

Where mp3 cuts off the HF would depend on the encoding--you can use a switch to disable all HF lowpassing for example.

Using graphs to compare lossy codecs is simply not valid. How MUCH difference there is between the original wav and the compressed version is not important--what's important is how *audible* the difference is. A superior lossy encoder would produce something more different from the original but less audibly different than the artifacts of a lesser encoder that *looks* better on a graph.
 
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Sep 10, 2002 at 3:19 AM Post #17 of 23
I haven't done any formal tests, graphed anything, or done any A/B blind testing.

So far, from what I've heard I like ATRAC better. I'm probably averaging mp3s in my head or something, but to me, MD sounds better for portable audio.
 
Sep 10, 2002 at 12:18 PM Post #18 of 23
Quote:

Originally posted by Magicthyse
Eh? You sure you've ever listened to a decent MP3 device?


Quote:

Originally posted by Magicthyse
On very good equipment, ATRAC would sound better.


What are you on about, then?
 
Sep 10, 2002 at 1:31 PM Post #19 of 23
There's decent (few hundred), and very good (1K+).
 
Sep 10, 2002 at 7:22 PM Post #20 of 23
I have to say that I have also listened to the MD sample posted at that page, and the mentioned castanets sample has a lot of pre-echo in comparison with the original sample. As I've said at another thread, a 230 Kbps VBR MP3 made with LAME 3.92 shows nearly unnoticeable pre-echo in comparison. MP3 is much more transparent, at least on that particular sample.
 
Sep 11, 2002 at 1:37 AM Post #21 of 23
Quote:

Originally posted by Joe Bloggs
Using graphs to compare lossy codecs is simply not valid. How MUCH difference there is between the original wav and the compressed version is not important--what's important is how *audible* the difference is.


I'm sorry, but if you really believe that, what's the point in all this discussion and this thread itself? Based on that statement, wouldn't it be all right to say, if a lossy codec sounds pleasant to the ear, it doesn't have to attempt to resemble the original?

We will have to refer to graphs at some point. They're there as backdrop; we need that to maintain perspective, because there are variables we can't eliminate, and the human condition is that our perceptions may change from one day to another.

The point being, you just lost me on what you're trying to say.
 
Sep 11, 2002 at 4:58 AM Post #22 of 23
What I'm trying to say is, what's important is not whether it *looks* the same, but whether it *sounds* the same. It's called psychoACOUSTICS for a reason.

Every so often, some guy comes up with the bright idea of subtracting the compressed waveform from the original and looking at how much stuff is left. He'd call the encoder with the least difference from the original the best.

Every time this happens he'd be laughed out of any serious sound compression discussion forum.

If you really want to 'see' (um) what I mean...
http://www.audio-illumination.org/fo...4&hl=wondering Skip to dibrom's post after reading the first post.

Looking at graphs seems like a very scientific to do in most occasions but is simply the wrong methodology for this topic.

Or, more accurately, it is possible in theory to see from a graph whether one codec is better than another, but it is very counterintuitive--for example, in an overall frequency analysis you may see that one codec preserves as much treble energy as the original whilst another codec has much less, but it may turn out that the codec with more treble energy, has it all messed up in the form of pre- and post- ringing whilst the other codec correctly encoded only the parts of the treble in the music that we are likely to notice. You must look at a spectrogram that shows time as well as frequency.

Even then you are likely to commit many mistakes. For example, after 'waveform subtraction', one codec may show a little deviation from the original in the time corresponding to the attack of an instrument, whereas another codec may show apparently a lot more deviation in the 'steady state' phase of the instrument (i.e. the time when the instrument is holding a note). You may conclude from the graph that the latter codec is the poorer one. But it may turn out that the deviation of the first codec is exhibited in offending pre-echo and alteration of the perceived character of the instrument (the sound in the attack phase of an instrument is much more important in determining the perceived character of the instrument than the sound in the steady state--in fact, when the attack phase of instruments is edited away in a sound clip, people even have difficulty telling apart instruments from completely different families.)

And yet everything in the above examples could be the other way round, the codec with roughly the correct amount of treble COULD indeed be the more accurate-sounding codec, the codec with more distortion in the steady phase of the instrument COULD indeed be distorting the character of the instrument. There is simply no way for human eyes to tell which is the case. When all is said and done, it is simply better to trust good ears, PROPERLY UTILIZED (well trained in detecting psychoacoustic encoder artifacts, good acuity, good mental condition e.g. well-rested, working with ABX comparisons)

Why do psychoacoustic encoders have to produce output wavs that are different from the original at all? It's because it's simply impossible to put in all the information about the original wav at the bitrates these encoders are using. All is not lost, however, because it's also impossible for the human ear to take in all the information available in their acoustic surroundings. (based on the anatomy of the human hearing system, especially the auditory nerve, it is estimated that auditory information is sent to the Central Nervous System at a rate of only 10-20kbps!!!) For this reason it is obvious that there are a range of waveforms that would map to the same representation after processing by the human auditory system, and that the waveform could be represented by a 'simpler' (informationally speaking, not conceptually
tongue.gif
) representation than PCM.

Since humans do not process sound purely in the time domain (PCM waveform) or frequency domain (spectrogram), the human ear has different ideas about what sound more similar or more different than the ideas you'd get from a waveform or spectrogram.
 
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Sep 11, 2002 at 11:36 AM Post #23 of 23
Quote:

Looking at graphs seems like a very scientific to do in most occasions but is simply the wrong methodology for this topic.

When all is said and done, it is simply better to trust good ears, PROPERLY UTILIZED (well trained in detecting psychoacoustic encoder artifacts, good acuity, good mental condition e.g. well-rested, working with ABX comparisons)


What I mean is, if you read some of the better Japanese articles, they give you the graphs, the sound clips, and then they post an impression on what the author heard. You get accounts from more than one end. While you may end up disregarding the graphs in your conclusion, it's important to have them there.

I'm not saying the graphs tell the whole story (or my on/off squeaking at ATRAC would've ended in 1998). At some point you will have to refer on certain scientific actions to make sure you're not just blabbering off into space.

Unless you feel that you've got every right to blabber.
 

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