[markl]

Here's my problem with "isolation" componets, FWIW (and all I've tried are Vibrapods and I don't think they did squat)...

So, the whole point of vibration-dampening devices is to cut down on microscopic vibrations inherent in your equipment's operation, not increase them.


Well, it seems to me, FWIW, many of these devices are soft and squishy, or at least softer and more forgiving than the shelf you already have your gear on. So, it would seem, most rubbery, movable things are *more* prone to the effects of vibration, rather than less so. If you are wearing shoes with bouncy, rubbery, gooey soles, at the slightest jiggle of the earth's crust, you will jiggle even more side to side and front and back, yes?

Doesn't it seem that if you put your gear on softer, more maleable surfaces, they will tend to exaggerate the pitch and yaw of any vibrations inherent in your gear, rather than suppress them? If I'm sitting on a bubble, and a gust of air hits that bubble, it's going to wobble and deform, causing me to feel vibrations.

Shouldn't we just look for the hardest most secure bases, rather than sponge-y, rubbery "dampeners"?

 

[eyeteeth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by markl Doesn't it seem that if you put your gear on softer, more maleable surfaces, they will tend to exaggerate the pitch and yaw of any vibrations inherent in your gear, rather than suppress them?

Logical-Fi

One improvement with the blocks...Swiffer-Fi!

 

[bigshot]

When I was in college, I made a stereo stand out of cinderblocks and plywood. It worked really good. It was solid as a rock... until the earthquake!

See ya
Steve

 

[eyeteeth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot It worked really good. It was solid as a rock... until the earthquake!

Reminds me of a relationship I was once in.

 

[Wmcmanus]

I've always used Vibrapods under most of my components, but have never felt that they've made a huge difference. I do think they help, or at least don't hurt, so I've always just left them there once they're in place. The main advantage of Vibrapods is that they're cheap ($6 each). In fact, you can often find them in the used marker for $3 or $4 each on Audiogon, which is what I've done.

I can highly recommend the Gingko Audio "Cloud 10" or "Cloud 11" isolation platforms. They're much more expensive (prices vary depending on size, see www.gingkoaudio.com, but they result in an instantly noticeable improvement in terms of a reduced noise floor and such. I've been using them for my sources, but think they would also do well under other relatively light weight components. BTW, Vihn Vu is the main man at Gingko. He's quite easy to deal with. Tell him I sent you, and maybe he'll give you a bit of a discount. But then again, maybe not.

Now getting even more expensive, but if you want the best, try the Sistrum component racks by Star Sound Technologies (makers of Audio Points which are also quite good, and much cheaper than the Sistrum racks). See: http://www.starsoundtechnologies.com/sistrum.html for details. The SP-101 Sistrum platform is said to be the best of the best for heavy speakers or big monoblock amps, but at $749 is ought to be! I'm not sure if they discount the Sistrum platforms but I'm about to find out (for my 2 channel rig only). The guys at Audiogon give almost universal praise to the Sistrum racks. Just do a search for "Sistrum" in their discussion forum and you'll see what I mean.

 

[HumanMedia]

Quote:

Originally Posted by markl Here's my problem with "isolation" componets, FWIW (and all I've tried are Vibrapods and I don't think they did squat)... So, the whole point of vibration-dampening devices is to cut down on microscopic vibrations inherent in your equipment's operation, not increase them. Well, it seems to me, FWIW, many of these devices are soft and squishy, or at least softer and more forgiving than the shelf you already have your gear on. So, it would seem, most rubbery, movable things are *more* prone to the effects of vibration, rather than less so. If you are wearing shoes with bouncy, rubbery, gooey soles, at the slightest jiggle of the earth's crust, you will jiggle even more side to side and front and back, yes? Doesn't it seem that if you put your gear on softer, more maleable surfaces, they will tend to exaggerate the pitch and yaw of any vibrations inherent in your gear, rather than suppress them? If I'm sitting on a bubble, and a gust of air hits that bubble, it's going to wobble and deform, causing me to feel vibrations. Shouldn't we just look for the hardest most secure bases, rather than sponge-y, rubbery "dampeners"?

Depends if what they are resting on is massive and unmoving or not. If you have concrete floors and tables/shelves tightly coupled, and the majority of introduced vibration is airborne or self generated, then its best if the components are tightly coupled (spikes).

If you are on sprung floors or most of the vibration comes from the floor/shelf then you need to decouple/isolate (soft squishy things).

So each approach gives the exact opposite effect and it really depends on your situation which approach you should take as it will depend on each component and the environment you are in.

That said, there will still be resonances so what these different types of devices do apart from reducing vibration/resonance is move the resonant frequency up or down. (Resonant frequncy moves up with hard cones/coupling, down in frequency with isolation devices) So with combinations of either approach you can fine tune for your situation.

 

[nikongod]

Quote:

Originally Posted by markl Here's my problem with "isolation" componets, FWIW (and all I've tried are Vibrapods and I don't think they did squat)... *lots more text, on the previous page* removed to save space.

something to consider is that there are vibrations IN the amp.

this is more of a problem with a transformer coupled tube amp.

in the case of an amp which is mounted HARD to a HARD and unyelilding surface when the amp vibrates internally the vibrations have nowhere to go. they wind up shaking the tubes.

now, putting the amp on a soft/squishy surface, the vibrations can easily escape the feet into the pads. the pads are USUALLY made of some dampening material (wood/neoprene/etc) to efectively dampen these vibrations.

since you may not believe that there are vibrations IN an amp, i reccomend this to you. take your tube amp and hook it upto a dummy load. set the volume to the level you normally listen at. listen to the transformers.... sounds like music to me. nothing but the internal coils of the transformer vibrating about. nowthen immagine that your tubes got microphonic (if they werent to start) and this vibration got into the tubes. it could easily create very weird output waves because of oddly intermeshing signals.

 

[jumping jupiters]

Quote:

Originally Posted by markl Doesn't it seem that if you put your gear on softer, more maleable surfaces, they will tend to exaggerate the pitch and yaw of any vibrations inherent in your gear, rather than suppress them? If I'm sitting on a bubble, and a gust of air hits that bubble, it's going to wobble and deform, causing me to feel vibrations. Shouldn't we just look for the hardest most secure bases, rather than sponge-y, rubbery "dampeners"?

Just like in a car, rubber/shock absorbers take out/dampen the vibrations as opposed to amplifying them. Unless both surfaces are completely smooth and rigid would it make sense to directly couple them together (think of a train on rails). Since audio equipment has internal vibration, like the engine mounted in a car (rubber mounted by the way), isolation must be applied...the question is whether factory feet are best. It really is a case by case senario. That is why there are so many diffenet types of materials employed...everyone has different equipment and environments. I am writing this at 2 AM so please forgive me if it makes no sense at all!

 

[eyeteeth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HumanMedia there will still be resonances so what these different types of devices do apart from reducing vibration/resonance is move the resonant frequency up or down. (Resonant frequncy moves up with hard cones/coupling, down in frequency with isolation devices) So with combinations of either approach you can fine tune for your situation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nikongod there are vibrations IN the amp.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jumping jupiters Since audio equipment has internal vibration, like the engine mounted in a car (rubber mounted by the way), isolation must be applied...the question is whether factory feet are best. It really is a case by case senario. That is why there are so many different types of materials employed...everyone has different equipment and environments. I am writing this at 2 AM so please forgive me if it makes no sense at all!

Prior to these three posts I had a helpful PM from a member who suggested cardboard coaters under the blocks. I was aware prior to all of this of the ideas of couple and decouple and did have one set each of squishy Isonodes, Nordost's aluminum Pulsar Points and original black diamond cones laying around for a few years. Sometimes these items were under gear, to no affect that I could hear, and sometimes they'd be in a drawer.

As I was saying before, I feared there was an increased brightness. This had me reach for a variety of "reference" discs, the later Wilcos, soundtracks like Gladiator, etc, later shifting over to more usual non-audiophile fare.

Micro-Brew-Fi

I thought I'd decouple the Cardas blocks from my nothing special rack of MDF shelves and put the cardboard beer coasters underneath. At 53 pounds the amp is well coupled to the rack, I thought they are as one and that the rack may be a lousy tuning fork! (Well before that I swapped the Cardas for the Pulsar Points and BDC under the DAC but I couldn't detect much difference between any of them. Now the BDC are on the coasters).

Long story short, there is no tonal imbalance and there has been an increase in distinctions to be heard in all music. One CD that has been played through out all the upgrades and downgrades of the recent years is Radiohead's Kid A. As electronic based music it may not qualify as a reference among hard core purists but it happens to have been played now and again and I've enjoyed it's continuing sonic expansion. I've never heard it better here than last night. The individual instruments/sounds had greater indepence from each other and a more solid placement than I'd heard before (speakers impossible to detect, eyes closed, the music is the room). Smashing Pumpkin's Mellon Collie, which I reaquainted myself with a month or so ago for the first time since the year of its release (and was pleasantly suprised by sonically, as I expected the worst!), was much warmer, richer than I recalled with loads of mid bass. It sounded somewhat muted. Buckley's Grace Legacy edition was full of delicacy but also too brightly lit. On the negative side I became aware of precisely when increasing volume was no longer being accompanied by sufficient dynamics. I did move from 84dB two way standmounts to 85dB three way floorstanders a little while ago and was pleased that my amp didn't seem to care. I did start to suspect some loss at higher volumes but wasn't fully certain. Now I'm fully and completely certain that the bass drivers are taking their share of the current. Why the amp seems so affected by isolation had me think about ATC who are definitely not sympathetic to audiophile tweakiness and I'm sure they've put no effort into internal dampening.

I'll continue to play around with things and I haven't moved onto the turntable yet. I expect to notice differences for better or worse there. Sorry I'm not going on at length about all this and am typing the bare minimum but I'm not in a writing mood.

Is myrtle better than another type of wood? I'd ask Cardas but they'd just send me a picture of a spiral galaxy!

Anyway the coasters were free and music was generally at it's best yet here. Sometimes it sounded weird..because it was different I guess. If there's anything to add later, I'll add.

 

[eyeteeth]

Oh before I forget I saw a video that made me laugh. I can't say the video proves anything but it's an interesting company catering to industry and just a nod to audiophiles. I don't know what there prices are but surely there is no massive audiophile markup...I hope.

http://www.sounddeadsteel.com/HiFi%2...20Platform.htm