is this really a problem with blind tests?
Jun 27, 2016 at 4:51 PM Post #31 of 126
   
 
You are not answering my questions 


I started this thread by asking a question. You didn't answer it.
 
EDIT: let me clarify again. There is a body of knowledge in sound science that is based on blind tests. We certainly would want these blind tests to be valid. If the test is to determine the difference between A and B, then a question arises: does spending more time with A and B allow one to hear more differences? I'm asking you to answer that question.
 
Jun 27, 2016 at 5:03 PM Post #32 of 126
 
I started this thread by asking a question. You didn't answer it.
 
EDIT: let me clarify again. There is a body of knowledge in sound science that is based on blind tests. We certainly would want these blind tests to be valid. If the test is to determine the difference between A and B, then a question arises: does spending more time with A and B allow one to hear more differences? I'm asking you to answer that question.

 
 
Nope, you made an assertion, were does that assertion come from ?
 
You said we -KNOW (emphasis added)  you have to back this up, how do we know? what is the source of this certainty or is it just your opinion or folk wisdom?
 
Stop deflecting, it's okay to have an opinion (I think) as long as it is clear that it is an opinion and not OSAF
 
Jun 27, 2016 at 5:49 PM Post #33 of 126
 
  short samples are often suggested in tests, but only because it has been established that our audio memories start failing us after 3 to 10seconds(depending on what paper you read on the matter). so deciding to use short music samples is simply the decision to try and remove the memory variable from the test. it's often a game of compromises as we seldom can remove all variables for a perfect test. of course if a longer sample could help answer the specific question we have, then we would probably go for it. as said above the important part of comparing 2 samples is the rapid switching. but the length of the test, the number of samples, the order ... can very well change to adapt to a specific problem.
blind test is really just a generic term.

 
How was it determined by sound science that audio memory is so short? Musicians and instrument makers can only function if they can track changes in sound that result from experiments that take place over days or weeks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echoic_memory the wiki has a few papers linked at the end.
we can of course remember longer than that, it's only that long term memory seems to work in favor of efficiency more than accuracy. it will already include our interpretation of things and specific details will be changed/exaggerated as we recall them often and consider them important elements. while the echoic memory will let us recall things with more accuracy. so if what we need to identify can be in a short time, it will be preferred to work that way. if not we'll do something else. again, I don't think we can keep on talking about vague universal concepts when each question may be better answered by a specific test with specific protocols or may simply have nothing to do with blind test or objective data.
 
 
about musicians, there has been not that long ago a little hot topic about pianists and how judges might not give the same results if they can't see the person playing. just removing vision would be a blind test. no short samples or stuff like that. just removing an extra variable. ^_^
 
Jun 27, 2016 at 5:58 PM Post #34 of 126
   
 
Nope, you made an assertion, were does that assertion come from ?
 
You said we -KNOW (emphasis added)  you have to back this up, how do we know? what is the source of this certainty or is it just your opinion or folk wisdom?
 
Stop deflecting, it's okay to have an opinion (I think) as long as it is clear that it is an opinion and not OSAF


I only made an assertion in order to establish a general sense of the area of knowledge I would like answers about. Does spending more time with A and B allow one to hear more details/differences?
 
Jun 27, 2016 at 6:31 PM Post #35 of 126
 
I only made an assertion in order to establish a general sense of the area of knowledge I would like answers about. Does spending more time with A and B allow one to hear more details/differences?

 
There have been few what you might call "scientific" studies testing whether short-term exposure (a few seconds) is better than long term (unlimited) and even less that I have seen would pass muster (imho) in peer reviewed journals or recognized conferences (I review papers as papers of my job)  but I'll have a scratch around...
 
The weak ones such as Tom Nousaines point towards shorter is better when the sole purpose is A/B difference of any kind...
 
Jun 28, 2016 at 12:31 AM Post #36 of 126
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echoic_memory the wiki has a few papers linked at the end.
we can of course remember longer than that, it's only that long term memory seems to work in favor of efficiency more than accuracy. it will already include our interpretation of things and specific details will be changed/exaggerated as we recall them often and consider them important elements. while the echoic memory will let us recall things with more accuracy. so if what we need to identify can be in a short time, it will be preferred to work that way. if not we'll do something else. again, I don't think we can keep on talking about vague universal concepts when each question may be better answered by a specific test with specific protocols or may simply have nothing to do with blind test or objective data.


about musicians, there has been not that long ago a little hot topic about pianists and how judges might not give the same results if they can't see the person playing. just removing vision would be a blind test. no short samples or stuff like that. just removing an extra variable. ^_^


I realize that blind testing is important. I didn't mean to say that the "blindness" part of blind testing is bad, but I mean to look at how it is actually carried out in practice.

As you said, vague universal concepts might not shed a whole lot of light. That's what saying "you need blind testing to avoid bias" is doing. It doesn't actually say anything about how the tests are carried out. And there seems to be some pressure to make the tests short. A professional experiment is expensive, and a protocol that reduces comparison time would save a lot of money. I'm not saying such a protocol is doomed to failure. Maybe it's the right one.

I understand that echoic memory is good at comparing certain types of changes. I read the wikipedia article, but it's poorly written. In any case I got some sense of what it's about.

Let's call the set of all changes that can be detected in echoic memory C1. Let's call the set of all changes that are audible in any context C2. Has there been any work to establish that C1 == C2? Or if C1 is a subset of C2, does anyone know what kinds of changes are in C2 but not C1?
 
Jun 28, 2016 at 12:33 AM Post #37 of 126
There have been few what you might call "scientific" studies testing whether short-term exposure (a few seconds) is better than long term (unlimited) and even less that I have seen would pass muster (imho) in peer reviewed journals or recognized conferences (I review papers as papers of my job)  but I'll have a scratch around...

The weak ones such as Tom Nousaines point towards shorter is better when the sole purpose is A/B difference of any kind...


Would you say it's true that all short-term type comparisons are done in echoic memory? And longer listening sessions are done in long-term memory? The relative capabilities of echoic memory and long-term memory might be a factor. It might be misleading to characterize the difference between the tests as a matter of length.
 
Jun 28, 2016 at 10:45 AM Post #38 of 126
Here is something I found on the subject matter:
 
http://web.missouri.edu/~cowann/docs/articles/in%20press/now%20out/Winkler%20%26%20Cowan%20Exptl%20Psychol%202004%20in%20press.pdf
 
 
From Sensory to Long-Term Memory: Evidence from Auditory Memory Reactivation Studies
 
Abstract. Everyday experience tells us that some types of auditory sensory information are retained for long periods of time. For example, we are able to recognize friends by their voice alone or identify the source of familiar noises even years after we last heard the sounds. It is thus somewhat surprising that the results of most studies of auditory sensory memory show that acoustic details, such as the pitch of a tone, fade from memory in ca. 10Ð15 s. One should, therefore, ask (1) what types of acoustic information can be retained for a longer term, (2) what circumstances allow or help the formation of durable memory records for acoustic details, and (3) how such memory records can be accessed? The present review discusses the results of experiments that used a model of auditory recognition, the auditory memory reactivation paradigm. Results obtained with this paradigm suggest that the brain stores features of individual sounds embedded within representations of acoustic regularities that have been detected for the sound patterns and sequences in which the sounds appeared. Thus, sounds closely linked with their auditory context are more likely to be remembered. The representations of acoustic regularities are automatically activated by matching sounds, enabling object recognition.

 
Jun 28, 2016 at 9:44 PM Post #39 of 126
The simple question if short or long sample is better to recognize differences doesn't really matter all that much.
rolleyes.gif

 
More important is the question whether or not the specific sample is suitable to reveal differences or not. Certain signals are pretty simple and can be compressed w/o audible loss of information, it doesn't really matter if you listen to such a sample for 10 sec or 10 minutes. Or you listen one time only each or switch back and forth a hundred times. If you have a sample that is very complex e.g. brush stick on cymbals this will sound like crude metal on metal crushing noise, all meddled together when compressed and it will sound like the real thing uncompressed. Whatever the purpose of the test (who paid for it?) the test design from the start can influence to a great degree what the outcome is.
eek.gif

 
If someone concentrates in a quiet room with highly revealing system he will be able to detect differences of pieces of equipment (e.g. cables) and details in the recording that regular listening with average set up will simply not be able to reproduce. If an ABX test is conducted with an average set up and commercial, middle of the road pop stuff is used, this won't show any statistical significant result. But concluding from this outcome that there is no difference in general is pure BS. The ONLY valid conclusion is, that this test didn't show any significant difference. Once you get this important aspect about limitations of any test, you can completely relax, enjoy music with a set up you like and don't worry about all the ABX discussion.
wink.gif
 
 
Jun 29, 2016 at 9:52 AM Post #40 of 126
  If someone concentrates in a quiet room with highly revealing system he will be able to detect differences of pieces of equipment (e.g. cables)  

 
 
Do you have any credible evidence for audible differences in cables , beyond those that are clearly faulty or deliberately designed to do nasty things to sound ?
 
I have trawled the AES and other places and have only found one peer reviewed paper suggesting an audible difference between analog cables and that was a very extreme example using a turntable with low level signals ( a few mV) and a 1m cable vs a 6m cable, I've never found any other credible listening test with competent cables and line level signals indicating a reliable audible difference
 
If you have other good evidence I'd be genuinely interested to read it
 
Jun 29, 2016 at 12:59 PM Post #41 of 126
long phono cartridge wiring could be problematic with moving magnet/moving iron cartridges also having audibly significant inductance
 
MM cartridges often spec an optimum load capacitance and actually use the LC peaking to hit the target response
 
again added/differing cable capacitance can have audio frequency response effects with inductive transducers
 
 
and some tube preamps can have kOhm output Z - giving possibly audible roll off with high C loading from long or exotic construction cables
 
 
the cheapest construction RCA cables can lack adequate shielding, have pig-tailed shield termination compromising EMI rejection and have too high ground return resistance, which can cause added hum from chassis leakage currents - so cheap cables can be too cheaply made
 
 
so no "all cables sound alike" isn't a universal truth - but many "subjectivists" actually use that formulation/exaggeration to bash strawman "objectivists" - to deflect from the lack of cable audible effect in most home audio situations and to justify exotic audiophile cables everywhere in the system
 
Jun 29, 2016 at 2:50 PM Post #42 of 126
   
 
Do you have any credible evidence for audible differences in cables , beyond those that are clearly faulty or deliberately designed to do nasty things to sound ?
 
I have trawled the AES and other places and have only found one peer reviewed paper suggesting an audible difference between analog cables and that was a very extreme example using a turntable with low level signals ( a few mV) and a 1m cable vs a 6m cable, I've never found any other credible listening test with competent cables and line level signals indicating a reliable audible difference
 
If you have other good evidence I'd be genuinely interested to read it


A cable discussion will get this ABX thread quickly off topic and the accessories and cable section is non-ABX (or non-DBT) zone
wink.gif
 
 
Jun 30, 2016 at 6:09 PM Post #43 of 126
  I'm not an expert in sound science, but rather I'm a professional musician. My understanding is that many blind audio tests are done with short clips of sound, but the curious thing is that in evaluating a musician's sound we would never think that we could pick up all the details in a short clip. From my musical experience, the shorter the sound, the less you notice about it. So one would not notice much at all except for the largest factors in a very short clip. Is there some evidence to the contrary?

Hi,
There is a difference between assessing a musician's sound and assessing a technical characteristic of a sound: the musician is not playing to its full ability for each note. Its inspiration can reveal itself only during some parts of the performance. Its skill varies with time in a short term basis. That's why it is necessary to listen to him or her for a long time.
A device, a recording format or a dsp, on the other hand, expresses its full characteristics since the first second of playback, and the rest of the performance is just an exact repetition of what is done since the beginning. If a -0.7 dB dip at 400 Hz is present on the first note, it is also present in the second, in the third etc. But if a musician plays a good transition between different parts of a musical piece, it will only come after the first part is over and when the second part starts.
That's why it is better to listen for musicians for a longer time.
 
Jul 1, 2016 at 8:21 AM Post #44 of 126
  [1] I'm not an expert in sound science, but rather I'm a professional musician. My understanding is that many blind audio tests are done with short clips of sound, but the curious thing is that in evaluating a musician's sound we would never think that we could pick up all the details in a short clip.
 
[2] There is a body of knowledge in sound science that is based on blind tests.

 
1. Although you initially identify the issue, you then proceed to ignore that issue and go off at a tangent. ... I too was a conservertoire trained, professional orchestral musician for a number of years but I later transitioned to audio engineering. The transition was nowhere near as easy as I imagined, as I had to re-learn much of what I thought I knew. The reason for the difficulty was not only in realising there are significant differences in nomenclature but in fully appreciating those differences. For example, musicians talk in terms of pitch, while engineers talk in terms of frequency. At a superficial level, pitch and frequency are just different terms for essentially the same thing but dig deeper and the relationship between pitch and frequency is far more tenuous and not at all as simple as it superficially appears. Musical nomenclature has evolved to describe the perception of music, while the engineering/scientific nomenclature has evolved to describe the physical properties of sound and as a trained musician, one is typically not taught, nor ever has to learn, how profound this seemingly insignificant difference is! As Pio2001 in effect states, you are therefore essentially confusing art and science: When "evaluating a musician's sound" it is impossible to "pick up all the details in a short clip" because it is impossible for a musician to incorporate every "detail" of their artistry (musical and technical ability) in a short clip! Articulation, phrasing, timing, tuning, volume and other attributes are the basic musical tools/properties but crucially, on their own, they are all meaningless. It's the different combinations of these properties, their execution and juxtaposition/context (based on the musician's interpretation and what they are trying to communicate) which is what we are trying to evaluate from a musical perspective. By definition, juxtaposition/context and communicating an idea/feeling all take time, a very considerable amount of time when evaluating a musician as we generally wish to evaluate a significant number of different juxtapositions and ideas/feelings. As far as sound science is concerned, none of this is relevant! Instead of numerous properties and combinations and juxtapositions of properties, sound has only two fundamental properties, there is nothing else, no context, no meaning, just amplitude and frequency! The word "the" on it's own and without context has no meaning, it cannot be used to evaluate say an actor, one needs considerably more words, context and time to do that. However, the word "the" (on it's own) contains a wealth of sonic information, information which can be analysed, compared and even "evaluated"!
 
2. Can you give any examples? I'm not saying there aren't any, just that I personally can't think of any off the top of my head. Sound science is not based on and does not use blind testing at all. The exception to this rule is the branch of sound science known as psychoacoustics. Psychoacoustics can be thought of as the attempt to reconcile sound science with the human perception of sound. It therefore combines three basic areas; sound science, anatomy/physiology of the ear and brain function. The first of these has, in effect, been completely understood for nearly 200 years! The anatomy/physiology of the ear is quite well understood but brain function far less so. One of the major difficulties of psychoacoustics is that there is no one human perception of sound, every human ear has at least slight physiological differences, in addition of course to every individual having different brain function and therefore everyone perceives sound somewhat differently. For these reasons, psychoacoustics has to rely, to a certain extent, on testing people, and concluding with generalities/averages based on extrapolation (as it's obviously not possible to test every human being who ever lived). However, it is not correct to say that even psychoacoustics (let alone sound science) is based on blind testing. Blind testing is typically used in psychoacoustics as supporting evidence for a theory which is actually based on sound science, physiology or both and most commonly used to define practical limitations as opposed to the higher theoretical limitations. For example, the ultimate high frequency limit of human hearing is not defined by blind testing, it is defined by the anatomical and physiological limits of the human ear. Where blind testing is useful is in identifying a generalised maximum limit in practise, rather than the anatomical/physiological limit which is only a theoretical maximum (and unachievable in practise). Anyone claiming they can hear beyond that physiological limit can therefore only be either deliberately lying, inadvertently lying (a victim of say a perceptual invention of their brain or serious failure of their testing methodology) or not entirely a human being. And, anyone claiming they can hear beyond the generalised (tested) practical limits are almost certainly lying (deliberately or inadvertently) or not entirely human.
 
The difficulty with audiophile claims is that some of them fly in the face of long established, uncontested, known science and are just plain stupid/ignorant. Others fly in the face of anatomical/physiological limitations and are just impossible. And some claims are just highly improbable, even under near perfect conditions, which audiophiles virtually never attain and commonly deliberately avoid, thereby making their claims literally unbelievable! Cables are a good example, the "night and day" differences often described by audiophiles flies in the face of the known science of sound, electrical engineering and human anatomy and can be utterly dismissed as deliberate (or inadvertent) lying!
 
G
 
Jul 1, 2016 at 4:08 PM Post #45 of 126
  Hi,
There is a difference between assessing a musician's sound and assessing a technical characteristic of a sound: the musician is not playing to its full ability for each note. Its inspiration can reveal itself only during some parts of the performance. Its skill varies with time in a short term basis. That's why it is necessary to listen to him or her for a long time.
A device, a recording format or a dsp, on the other hand, expresses its full characteristics since the first second of playback, and the rest of the performance is just an exact repetition of what is done since the beginning. If a -0.7 dB dip at 400 Hz is present on the first note, it is also present in the second, in the third etc. But if a musician plays a good transition between different parts of a musical piece, it will only come after the first part is over and when the second part starts.
That's why it is better to listen for musicians for a longer time.

 
The question is whether you can hear any difference between device A and device B with one second of sound, no matter what signal you pick for that one second. Is that what you are claiming?
 

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