"Is there really such a thing as a non - colored headphone"
Well, first you have to define "non-colored". People have different ear shape, and if you by non-colored mean that everyone should get a neutral sound from the same set, not making any individual changes, that will be impossible. With current tech, and the biological differences out there, they will by definition sound different.
Personally, I prefer harmonic sets. Those that make you hear the harmonies in the music, and those that have few flaws that hits you as off.
"Is there really such a thing as a non - colored headphone"
Well, first you have to define "non-colored". People have different ear shape, and if you by non-colored mean that everyone should get a neutral sound from the same set, not making any individual changes, that will be impossible. With current tech, and the biological differences out there, they will by definition sound different.
Personally, I prefer harmonic sets. Those that make you hear the harmonies in the music, and those that have few flaws that hits you as off.
"Is there really such a thing as a non - colored headphone"
Well, first you have to define "non-colored". People have different ear shape, and if you by non-colored mean that everyone should get a neutral sound from the same set, not making any individual changes, that will be impossible. With current tech, and the biological differences out there, they will by definition sound different.
Personally, I prefer harmonic sets. Those that make you hear the harmonies in the music, and those that have few flaws that hits you as off.
Many have already written such ideas in this thread. I think we do all agree in this surface ear topography idea as well as other biological factors. Still if the idea held as much water as it has been eluded to in SS the last year, you would not have whole groups, latterly hundreds and hundreds of people coming to the exact same conclution on how a particular headphone sounds. This ends up being nothing short of a amazing when you factor in the different audio effects from upstream gear on said headphone signature.
I think the theory is blown out of proportion in term of affecting factor. IMO
Example, most have felt the Sennheiser HE60 and 90 are flat.
Many have already written such ideas in this thread. I think we do all agree in this surface ear topography idea as well as other biological factors. Still if the idea held as much water as it has been eluded to in SS the last year, you would not have whole groups, latterly hundreds and hundreds people coming to the exact same conclution on how a particular headphone sounds. This ends up being nothing short of a amazing when you factor in the different audio effects from upstream gear on said headphone signature.
I think the theory is blown out of proportion in term of affecting factor. IMO
Example, most have felt the Sennheiser HE60 and 90 are flat.
If a headphone deviates from averaged data, then that can lead to such a consistency in opinion. Pathologically, consider a headphone that low-passes at 15kHz. Differences in the philosophy of how an average is obtained can also put a particular set of cans into a different tonal world. And you also have to consider the elephant in the room: that people like to jump on bandwagons, especially if a well-known reviewer is driving the wagon.
If any theory is blown out of proportion, it's the effect of upstream gear. Any good DAC should be flat enough to hardly matter to the peaks and valleys of your typical headphone, and anyone deliberately using an amp to affect spectral balance (e.g. high output impedance) could do the same kind of thing with EQ.
Many have already written such ideas in this thread. I think we do all agree in this surface ear topography idea as well as other biological factors. Still if the idea held as much water as it has been eluded to in SS the last year, you would not have whole groups, latterly hundreds and hundreds people coming to the exact same conclution on how a particular headphone sounds. This ends up being nothing short of a amazing when you factor in the different audio effects from upstream gear on said headphone signature.
I think the theory is blown out of proportion in term of affecting factor. IMO
Example, most have felt the Sennheiser HE60 and 90 are flat.
And yet, I wrote that basicly knowing everything written in here. You just forgot about one crucial component: The definition. Because "strictly" speaking, what I say is "correct", and goes to show that this can be argued "academic". Boring. Silly.
Sure, it is quite a bit amazing, how even speakers are found to sound pretty similar. That is a valid point.
Also, I sit here listening to the HD800 on the Oppo HA-1, and it sure does not sound like I have been told it should. Where does that leave us? (hint: the HD800 hates digital noise, as do the Oppo)
If you gathered a hundred men, and told them to listen to a mp3 recording, and then the uncompressed source. 98% cannot hear the difference, while two men describe the difference in almost exactly the same terms. Where does that leaves us?
Consensus is fine, but it sure is not a tool of accuracy.
... Any good DAC should be flat enough to hardly matter to the peaks and valleys of your typical headphone, and anyone deliberately using an amp to affect spectral balance (e.g. high output impedance) could do the same kind of thing with EQ.
A strict academic take on this, makes little sense. In such a setting, your claim will fail flat, straight of the bat. As almost everything else claimed in this thread. But you got a fair point, inaccurate but fair, and you just did not kill everyone else with it. To me, your point is interesting, your "killing" of others, completely and utterly boring.
And I completely lost you on your claims of EQ usage. Using a EQ changes a lot more than just the desired amplitude. In my experience, doing it right in the first place, cannot be achieved by any EQ. Not even close. Simply because there is a lot more than just amplitude to it.
A strict academic take on this, makes little sense. In such a setting, your claim will fail flat, straight of the bat. As almost everything else claimed in this thread. But you got a fair point, inaccurate but fair, and you just did not kill everyone else with it. To me, your point is interesting, your "killing" of others, completely and utterly boring.
And I completely lost you on your claims of EQ usage. Using a EQ changes a lot more than just the desired amplitude. In my experience, doing it right in the first place, cannot be achieved by any EQ. Not even close. Simply because there is a lot more than just amplitude to it.
No attempt to "kill"… Are you contesting that many DACs aren't flat? I'm certain ones exist that deliberately are not, but the measurements on the ones I've used have all been pretty consistently transparent. As far as your contention on EQ: certainly there are phase issues to consider, but take the example of the HD800; people do elaborate things to it (mods, tubes, cables) to essentially lower a peak at about 6kHz. Certainly a dip on a minimum phase EQ could get the same effect with minimal issues otherwise. If you have an academic refutation, well this is the right forum for it.
DACs, just look at the thousands of posts about them here. Funny, this comes up as today as I'm actually getting ready to review one with an idea to purchase it.
So what happens when your about to demo a new DAC in your system? You get your files together, the songs that you have known for years and years, the demo CDs. Then you listen to them again and again prior to the change out of the old DAC so you can maybe hear a contrasting signature somewhere.
Your wishing for an improvement and actually hoping for some sort of contrast between the two. It IS so very almost non-existent in change most of the time, how could it possibly be worth the money. And the best relief is when a fellow Head-FI member can validate your opinion so you kinda think you onto at least something.
It's this idealist value that we think exists out there, an imaginary unicorn DAC that is somehow going to make everything OK, and resist all the nightmares and paranoid ideas we have been told about jitter and color.
All i'm gonna add to all this here is that i came here wondering if it was possible for there to exist a color- free headphone, not neccasarily one with a flat frequency respone wether that be a ruler flat response or the Harman curve. I now understand that the only way to acheive this is HRTF. Enabling you to match the headphones output to the natural frequency response of your ears.
But personally i'd prefer not to impliment HRTF for myself...as i realise that the way these things distort the sound is beneficial to my perception of the end result of how i hear what i hear. Learning of this HRTF, i've decided that the correct approach would be to invest in one of the flat FR headphones, andnot alter the sound by means of DSP or other possible means. And the reason why, is because its not natural to interfere with how our ears naturaly recieve sound. So although by listening to any headphone ( regardless of FR ) if my ears are altering the original sound waves ommiting from the headphone drivers, i'm still hearing the sound naturaly.
perhaps in this sense - we already hear a flat (or color-free) signal by default. And that it is our misconception to try to alter by means of technics like HRTF/DSP . Doing so would alter our ears natural perception of the headphones in use and artificialise our perception.
DACs, just look at the thousands of posts about them here. Funny, this comes up as today as I'm actually getting ready to review one with an idea to purchase it.
So what happens when your about to demo a new DAC in your system? You get your files together, the songs that you have known for years and years, the demo CDs. Then you listen to them again and again prior to the change out of the old DAC so you can maybe hear a contrasting signature somewhere.
Your wishing for an improvement and actually hoping for some sort of contrast between the two. It IS so very almost non-existent in change most of the time, how could it possibly be worth the money. And the best relief is when a fellow Head-FI member can validate your opinion so you kinda think you onto at least something.
It's this idealist value that we think exists out there, an imaginary unicorn DAC that is somehow going to make everything OK, and resist all the nightmares and paranoid ideas we have been told about jitter and color.
One either believes in things like confirmation bias or not. If you do, then you have to consider that biases can spread, especially in a community like this. If you don't, well then that's that I guess.
All i'm gonna add to all this here is that i came here wondering if it was possible for there to exist a color- free headphone, not neccasarily one with a flat frequency respone wether that be a ruler flat response or the Harman curve. I now understand that the only way to acheive this is HRTF. Enabling you to match the headphones output to the natural frequency response of your ears.
But personally i'd prefer not to impliment HRTF for myself...as i realise that the way these things distort the sound is beneficial to my perception of the end result of how i hear what i hear. Learning of this HRTF, i've decided that the correct approach would be to invest in one of the flat FR headphones, andnot alter the sound by means of DSP or other possible means. And the reason why, is because its not natural to interfere with how our ears naturaly recieve sound. So although by listening to any headphone ( regardless of FR ) if my ears are altering the original sound waves ommiting from the headphone drivers, i'm still hearing the sound naturaly.
perhaps in this sense - we already hear a flat (or color-free) signal by default. And that it is our misconception to try to alter by means of technics like HRTF/DSP . Doing so would alter our ears natural perception of the headphones in use and artificialise our perception.
Am i being too subjective for you?....is the "sound science" section of Head Fi supposed to be factual?....
I'm sorry if thats the case. Maybe i'm missing out on something?...come on man, speak up? make your feelings felt?!
Am i being too subjective for you?....is the "sound science" section of Head Fi supposed to be factual?....
I'm sorry if thats the case. Maybe i'm missing out on something?...come on man, speak up? make your feelings felt?!
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