Is there a scientific reason behind subjective reports of bass response sounding anemic through underpowered amps?
Jul 17, 2017 at 1:13 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 5

EQGuy

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https://lsirui.wordpress.com/2009/04/15/k701-vs-hd650-electrical-measurement/ suggests K701 bass response can sound anemic through underpowered amps because its bass at 100 Hz requires more power, current and voltage to reach 85 dB than its 1000 Hz response requires to reach 85 dB.

Is this true? If so, is this the reason for subjective reports of anemic bass through underpowered amps?

Is there a way to calculate power, current and voltage necessary to drive headphone X to SPL Y at frequency Z?

I have noticed that some people think that all you need is an amp that drives the headphones loud enough, whereas some people think that an amp that drives headphones loud enough can still have anemic bass response through high impedance and/or low sensitivity headphones, even when it drives them to a subjectively loud enough level and even though the amp measures with a flat frequency response. The purpose of this thread is to determine which of these opinions is correct.
 
Jul 17, 2017 at 11:46 AM Post #2 of 5
Audiophile subjective reports are always suspect.
They lack due diligence.
* * * * * * * * * * * *
Before you can look for scientific reasons, first you must start with scientific listening tests.
 
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Jul 17, 2017 at 12:16 PM Post #3 of 5
is underpowered amp underpowered? yes. ^_^ glad I could help.

there are a few points to address here:

-subjective reports, are mainly the kind to associate 2 things for no reason. the 2 amps will have about 5 hundred significant differences in design and specs, but the guy will go "amp B has a lot more power, I've seen that on the box, that's why I feel like the bass is better". and the 499 other potential reasons? well nobody ain't got time for them.
you never know if 20 people will tell the same thing because that's how it is. or if they all read some review from that famous dude and now they regurgitate something wrong or half understood. or simply if they say the same thing because the intuitive conclusion tends to lead there(right or not). like with, more bass requires more power. out of context it's obviously right so why not take that and use it to argue anything? of course people will think that way. so because I never know what to think, I chose to apply a massive amount of skepticism 9000 over any subjective claim.


-specs:
for headphone and for amps, specs are typically given for what's happening at 1Khz. so of course we have no idea of what is going on elsewhere. the point of those specs is to be able to make an approximation of the needs and behaviors. and for that job it works just fine.
the hd650 is given as about 300ohm, but the impedance goes a good deal higher around 100hz. we don't have such information in the default specs. so different amp impedances will result in slightly different levels of boost at 100hz. so the amp design and other specs become at least as relevant as power. some amps with have zero something impedance while others will have 30ohm or more. but just like for the headphone, those values are usually for 1Khz, some amp designs will show impedance variation throughout frequencies.
another thing is that not only the power specs were given at 1khz, but also into a 300ohm load when we look at amps for the hd650. so at 100hz the load isn't 300ohm anymore and we would need a different measurement anyway even if we didn't have the 1khz vs 100hz issue.
but most people giving subjective feedback don't even have a clue that those stuff exist, so of course they won't consider what they don't know. mooooaaar power becomes the likely scapegoat. you can never be wrong when you ask for more of something right... but that too is false.


-enough power, then more:
clearly, just measuring 2 frequencies like in your link and drawing conclusions from there is faulty. headphones don't have a flat frequency response, the bass rolls off at 80dB and it still rolls off at 90dB just adding power to the amp will not magically make the bass louder but somehow keep the midrange at 90dB. it makes no sense to think that way, be it with a functional or dysfunctional system.
sure enough if we are dealing with an underpowered amp, then many things can go wrong, but most likely we'll see 2 situations. we can't get the sound at the loudness we desire, or we'll start getting very significant distortions. an amplifier trying to send more than it can usually doesn't take it too well. if the only consequence is a little anemic bass, we're in one hell of a lucky result.
in the end we have enough power or we don't, more than enough doesn't send anything more to the headphone(unless we go louder). maybe a relevant data would be to measure distortions at different places, and sure enough we could do with a few more measurements when we purchase an amplifier. but that has nothing to do with subjective feedback.


so for my conclusion, I'm tempted to say that power arguments should come from actual measurements(duhhh!), not random subjective impressions about the low end on 2 different headphones. or some dude who has 2 completely different amps but somehow can only think about power. what else could possibly be different between 2 different amps? ^_^ people don't know how to solve a case. if audiophiles were playing Cluedo (Clue), most would go "it's colonel Mustard with the rope in the kitchen" after the second turn. then they would get offended when you dare point out that they're wrong and didn't have the means to draw that conclusion just yet anyway.
 
Jul 17, 2017 at 8:52 PM Post #4 of 5
Headphones like the K701 and HD650 are designed to be used with what you would call a voltage mode amplifier (as opposed to a current mode amplifier). The ideal voltage mode amplifier supplies voltage with a flat frequency response, and whatever current (and power) is required for that voltage. This means that when comparing the loudness of different frequencies for these headphones, it doesn't make sense to compare them at equal current or power, you should compare them at equal voltage. The graphs on innerfidelity do that, they show the frequency response from a voltage input. Take a look at them here:
https://www.innerfidelity.com/images/AKGK701.pdf
https://www.innerfidelity.com/images/SennheiserHD650.pdf

If I put them on two tabs and switch between I can see that the relative SPL of the 100Hz and 1KHz frequencies is very similar. To me it looks like the K701 just needs more voltage across the spectrum, and because of the lower impedance that also equates to more power. There is nothing dramatic or substantial in the impedance plot to suggest that the bass response specifically would be affected by an underpowered amp, since the impedance is fairly flat.

Due to the equal loudness contours which show that our ears are less sensitive to bass at lower volumes, if the headphone+amp doesn't go loud enough, it will subjectively have weak bass. Most people tend to crank the volume up more than usual when testing and trying out their gear. I expect it is likely that people will suffer from placebo affect when their amp doesn't have power to go louder, even if they won't actually listen to it at that level normally.
 
Jul 19, 2017 at 2:23 PM Post #5 of 5
The figures given are highly suspect. They aren't remotely near impedance figures given by the manufacturer or by other parties.
More generally, headphones such as the HD650 and the K701 will be particularly sensitive around the 100 Hz region, and their mechanical resonance is around that frequency as well. That resonant frequency, through back EMF increasing the impedance, will represent a local minimum of power draw for some constant input voltage.

The frequency response measurement serves as the sensitivity indicator, ratio of sound output to constant electrical input. These are taken with a voltage source. Since headphones are referenced by voltage, it doesn't make so much sense to think of current or power first.
 

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