[Attalal]

Apologies in advance for the long post, I’m going to try to be thorough to (hopefully) help you help me spend my money the right way.

About me and how I listen to music
For about a year now, I’ve been working from home 90% of the time, but my home set-up doesn’t really allow me to listen to my normal stereo and speakers. Headphone listening at home is now key to me for 10 hours a day while working and then relaxing.

I listen to a wide range of music across 80s, goth, industrial and electronic music. Some of the artists I listen to most are The Cure, Nine Inch Nails, Coil, Aphex Twin, Max Cooper, James Zabiela, Future Sound of London, Underworld, 65daysofstatic, Mogwai. In general: complex, layered music of largely synthetic sounds, often with driving guitars, but largely non-vocal and probably non-audiophile.

I listen to 90% of my music from CDs, the rest from Spotify Pro (though I’m experimenting with Deezer Pro for the flac). I wear glasses all the time.

While I’m working, it tends to be bleepy music at lower volumes, and then more vocal/song oriented music a bit louder when having real music time. I am not a basshead.

I am in Europe so Drop is out because of all the import costs.

My set-up
My system is an Arcam CDS-50 which is also my DAC for digital music into an Arcam SA-10 amp, connected via RCA cables. I am the using headphone stage on the amp.

I don’t really understand these numbers, but the DAC has an output of 2.2Vrms unbalanced with impedance of 47Ω. The amp’s headphone output is 5Vrms into 600Ω with an output impedance of 1Ω. When I bought it, I tested it with my headphones at the time – AKG 550 – and it seemed good.

The original problem – from AKG to Amirons
As I started working from home more, I felt the 550s were holding the system back – I mostly bought them because they were the most comfortable with glasses of the headphones I demoed at the time and the cable was a good length for my needs.

However, the more I listened to them, the 550s felt very closed and like they were playing right up by my head.

After a lot of research (rather than auditioning as nowhere near me had the headphones I wanted to try), I upgraded to Beyerdynamic Amirons. These were amazingly comfortable and a big step-up over the AKGs for depth of sound. But the longer I’ve lived with them, the more I’ve found they lack excitement. They are smooth to a fault with little sense of dynamics or bite – great for chilling out, but it makes fast/angry music lack drama.

I have never had a problem in my set-up with the ‘Beyer peak’ everyone talks about. I think my taste is for brighter headphones, or my system already tames the treble, or both.

Attempted solution 1 – Sundara
After more research, I got the Hifiman Sundara…

Impressions:

• The right arm was loose right out of the box (that QC I’d been reading about), but they worked (phew!).
• The cable was too short (and janky feeling) so I hooked them up with the Amiron cable.
• These brought a real spring back to my music and I love how my system seems to really grip them, even though I have to crank it up a bit.
• Loud bits do crash in loud and there’s a clarity and pace that was missing from the Amirons for me.
• The overall balance sounds right and melodies, lead guitars and synths all seem to be in the ‘right place’.
• I love how the weird sounds I like seem to be ripple from all different points in the soundstage, like they’re activating different parts of the driver.

They could have been the solution apart from two problems:

1. They are too open. Whereas the Amirons block a little outside noise, these are total sieves. When I’m listening quietly, I can hear the birds outside, neighbours talking all the time, which is really distracting.
2. They sound a little thin. The Amiron may lack the energy, but the warmth and fullness of the bass just fills out the sound more.

Attempted solution 2 – DT 1990 Pro
After reading about the clarity and aggressiveness of these across all the forums, I thought this could be the missing link (I did hem and haw to the last second between these and the Amirons). These are with me now and I’ve had them playing almost non-stop for the last 5 days.

Impressions:

• The Balanced pads are a dark and muddy mess, the bass is fun but the whole sound seems muffled and the melodies and guitar sounds I like are too low in the mix
• The Analytic pads have a much more reasonable balance; I have kept these on for most of the time
• I still don’t hear this painful treble so many people complain about.
• Even with the A pads, the sound has that fullness I was missing from the Sundara. However, I don’t hear that crystal clarity and energy I got from Sundara. Drum sounds are amazing, but melodies feel secondary and don’t whizz around like they did on the Sundara – is this the recessed mids I keep reading about?
• There is some amazing detail there, especially when it comes to background or overlaid vocals, where I’m hearing new things all the time.
• Despite what I was expecting, these still feel a little muted or veiled to me. They are definitely more exciting than the Amiron at least, so they’re also a step in the right direction.

For example, listening to Tame by the Pixies, the DT 1990s bring the fullness and swagger for the bass, but when Frank Black starts howling, or the guitars smash in, it’s the Sundara that brings the full weight of the punch.

What next? Your help needed, please!

The Sundara are going back now and the DT 1990 will be soon too, and I would love some help on where to go next. My budget is up to £1k, but less is fine too

• Is my amp’s headphone stage holding back these headphones? I’ve tried to work with the numbers, and I think it should be good for all these models, but my experience of the 1990 seems very different to everyone else’s…
  • If I need a headphone amp, what do you recommend that I can slot in my chain without disruption? Both the Beyer A20 and Pro-Ject S20 have passthrough that would work, but I *think* they have less power than my amp’s headphone stage…
• Is there a headphone that sounds like a cross between the 1990 and the Sundara?
  • I thought Ananda could be good as the sound is meant to be fuller, and they’re built to be easy to drive, which might forgive my amp if it’s underpowered, but there is the QC issue there, and the test on rtings show it’s even less isolating than the Sundara.
  • The Elex is mentioned a lot, but Drop is out for me; could the Elear or Clear work?
  • Any other options? I have auditioned Grados in the past and liked the sound but not the comfort or the enormous cable. I have never auditioned Sennheisers and wonder if the 600 or 660s might be worth trying… though less so if I have an amplification challenge.

TL;DR
Ultimately, I want an open or semi-open headphone with good soundstage and imaging that has fun, verve and detail and makes melodies shine for a variety of alternative and electronic music. It needs to perform well at lower volumes and play well with glasses. Practicality wise, in my current set-up, I want a 3m cable with a 3.5mm jack.

I might also need a headphone amp as well/instead.

Thank you!!

 

[silent-circuit]

Schiit Magni 3 or Magni 3 Heresy for an amp, I think they have dedicated european distributors now? You can go higher up the ladder with that budget but that's a good place to start. Headphones stages in speaker amps are usually an afterthought.

Maybe Fostex T60rp, or one of the T50rp mods? Dan Clark Audio Aeon Flow 2 Open? (Maybe too open?) Not sure. I listen to a lot of the same stuff but don't think you'd be happy with my headphones, largely because they're all fully open. If you want to try open again, I'm currently very happy with the Sendy Audio AIVA.

 

[gimmeheadroom]

LCD-2C. Would space on the entry level schiit and think about a cheap THX amp (drop, monoprice, SMSL). The LCD-2C is warm and the THX amps are cold.

 

[Attalal]

Schiit Magni 3 or Magni 3 Heresy for an amp, I think they have dedicated european distributors now? You can go higher up the ladder with that budget but that's a good place to start. Headphones stages in speaker amps are usually an afterthought.

Maybe Fostex T60rp, or one of the T50rp mods? Dan Clark Audio Aeon Flow 2 Open? (Maybe too open?) Not sure. I listen to a lot of the same stuff but don't think you'd be happy with my headphones, largely because they're all fully open. If you want to try open again, I'm currently very happy with the Sendy Audio AIVA.

Thanks for that! I was looking at the Schiit Magni, but my quandary with the Schiit, though they clearly have more power than my amp, is how to fit it into my system. The Schiit's output works as a pre-amp, rather than being a line passthrough, so if I put it between my DAC and speaker amp, I have two volume controls in the mix. Annoyingly, my amp only has pre-out and no tape/line out, so if I put the Schiit after the amp, again, there's two sets of volume to balance. Or is it simpler than that?

The Pro-Ject S2 and the Beyer A20 both have line-level passthrough, but the S2's 725mW into 32ohms doesn't seem much different to my amp's 5vRMS into 600 ohms *IF* I understand these numbers correctly.

On the headphone side, the Aeon Flow open was also one I was wondering about... Have you tried it out at all? The Fostex T60rp is a new idea and looks like it could be good with that semi-open construction. The Sendy looks good too - also a new one for me - but some review say the bass is really lacking - how do you find it? Or are you EQing it?

LCD-2C. Would space on the entry level schiit and think about a cheap THX amp (drop, monoprice, SMSL). The LCD-2C is warm and the THX amps are cold.

Thanks! I'll check out those amps and that's a good idea to balance warm and cold. How comfortable is the LCD-2C? It looks like it might be pretty heavy for wearing all day. How do you find it?

 

[gimmeheadroom]

Thanks for that! I was looking at the Schiit Magni, but my quandary with the Schiit, though they clearly have more power than my amp, is how to fit it into my system. The Schiit's output works as a pre-amp, rather than being a line passthrough, so if I put it between my DAC and speaker amp, I have two volume controls in the mix. Annoyingly, my amp only has pre-out and no tape/line out, so if I put the Schiit after the amp, again, there's two sets of volume to balance. Or is it simpler than that?

The Pro-Ject S2 and the Beyer A20 both have line-level passthrough, but the S2's 725mW into 32ohms doesn't seem much different to my amp's 5vRMS into 600 ohms *IF* I understand these numbers correctly.

On the headphone side, the Aeon Flow open was also one I was wondering about... Have you tried it out at all? The Fostex T60rp is a new idea and looks like it could be good with that semi-open construction. The Sendy looks good too - also a new one for me - but some review say the bass is really lacking - how do you find it? Or are you EQing it?



Thanks! I'll check out those amps and that's a good idea to balance warm and cold. How comfortable is the LCD-2C? It looks like it might be pretty heavy for wearing all day. How do you find it?

The comfort on the Audeze is something you can only decide for yourself. I consider them among my most comfortable cans. They are heavy but the wide headstrap distributes the weight very evenly. I have lighter cans where the topstrap hurts my head or the pads hurt my ears. With my Audezes I feel like I'm sitting inside them. The pads both fake leather and lambskin are really comfortable and fit my ears well. And I wear reading glasses sometimes with them and due to the thickness of the pads they work fine.

 

[silent-circuit]

Thanks for that! I was looking at the Schiit Magni, but my quandary with the Schiit, though they clearly have more power than my amp, is how to fit it into my system. The Schiit's output works as a pre-amp, rather than being a line passthrough, so if I put it between my DAC and speaker amp, I have two volume controls in the mix. Annoyingly, my amp only has pre-out and no tape/line out, so if I put the Schiit after the amp, again, there's two sets of volume to balance. Or is it simpler than that?

The Pro-Ject S2 and the Beyer A20 both have line-level passthrough, but the S2's 725mW into 32ohms doesn't seem much different to my amp's 5vRMS into 600 ohms *IF* I understand these numbers correctly.

On the headphone side, the Aeon Flow open was also one I was wondering about... Have you tried it out at all? The Fostex T60rp is a new idea and looks like it could be good with that semi-open construction. The Sendy looks good too - also a new one for me - but some review say the bass is really lacking - how do you find it? Or are you EQing it?

I don't EQ at all, flat across the board, but it's on my to-do list after playing around with DSP room correction with my stereo set up. I have an app called Neutralizer for Android that basically plays tones at a bunch of frequencies, then you adjust so you barely hear them, and it builds an eq curve to flatten the output. DSP correction minus the measuring mic. Might be something to play with.

The AIVA doesn't have quite as much bass punch as the HiFiMan HE-4XX, but it is (to my ears at least) more controlled and detailed. I'll take some time when I get home tonight and compare them, try to give a better take. I definitely haven't found bass insufficient with the AIVA, but I'm also not a bass head. I don't own the T60rp but am planning to pick up a set soon based on reviews and borrowing a friend's T50rp a while back.

 

[Attalal]

I don't EQ at all, flat across the board, but it's on my to-do list after playing around with DSP room correction with my stereo set up. I have an app called Neutralizer for Android that basically plays tones at a bunch of frequencies, then you adjust so you barely hear them, and it builds an eq curve to flatten the output. DSP correction minus the measuring mic. Might be something to play with.

The AIVA doesn't have quite as much bass punch as the HiFiMan HE-4XX, but it is (to my ears at least) more controlled and detailed. I'll take some time when I get home tonight and compare them, try to give a better take. I definitely haven't found bass insufficient with the AIVA, but I'm also not a bass head. I don't own the T60rp but am planning to pick up a set soon based on reviews and borrowing a friend's T50rp a while back.

Thanks! I'd be keen to hear your further thoughts on the AIVA. I'm not a basshead either; I like some good deep bass of course, but not bloated and I don't really listen to electronic music for the beats. I pretty much never listen to bass-driven genres. Both the 1990s and Amirons do more than enough bass for me, if that helps at all.

The Fostex definitely reads well and I'll keep that on my shortlist. I've fallen down a bit of a well for amps at the moment: you can't get any Schiit in the UK at the moment, but am looking at the JDS Labs Atom or El Amp II as well Topping amps like the A50 or L30.

The comfort on the Audeze is something you can only decide for yourself. I consider them among my most comfortable cans. They are heavy but the wide headstrap distributes the weight very evenly. I have lighter cans where the topstrap hurts my head or the pads hurt my ears. With my Audezes I feel like I'm sitting inside them. The pads both fake leather and lambskin are really comfortable and fit my ears well. And I wear reading glasses sometimes with them and due to the thickness of the pads they work fine.

Very true, thank you! I found the Sundara really comfortable for my head - lovely balance of weight, support and clamp - but I know some people struggle with them. I see you have the HD600 - do you think they might be worth an audition?

 

[gimmeheadroom]

Thanks! I'd be keen to hear your further thoughts on the AIVA. I'm not a basshead either; I like some good deep bass of course, but not bloated and I don't really listen to electronic music for the beats. I pretty much never listen to bass-driven genres. Both the 1990s and Amirons do more than enough bass for me, if that helps at all.

The Fostex definitely reads well and I'll keep that on my shortlist. I've fallen down a bit of a well for amps at the moment: you can't get any Schiit in the UK at the moment, but am looking at the JDS Labs Atom or El Amp II as well Topping amps like the A50 or L30.



Very true, thank you! I found the Sundara really comfortable for my head - lovely balance of weight, support and clamp - but I know some people struggle with them. I see you have the HD600 - do you think they might be worth an audition?

The 600 is a classic pair of cans. In some ways I don't think it's possible to do better at any price. The sound is beautifully natural, lifelike. They're great for many genres and it's hard to find a better pair of all-around headphones unless you want colored sound. The downside is they clamp pretty hard. That part can take a while to get used to or maybe some people never get used to it. The 600/650/6XX need plenty of voltage and will not perform well without enough amp. They scale like crazy with a good amp.

 

[Attalal]

Bit of an update in spending spree trial land. I got the SMSL SP200 amp and it did indeed bring my headphones to life in a way that my normal amp just doesn't - much fuller representation of the sound and way livelier. However, I think it was too much... Even on low gain, I'm turning the volume dial like a safe cracker to get sound and not blow my ears off. I had more play with older music, but modern music gives me no movement.

A shop near me had the Burson Soloist SL MK2 on open box sale, so I've got that here too. It's certainly a more premium feeling experiences than the SMSL and the sound seems fantastic to me: a bit more more open in the soundstage than the SMSL and a touch better bass. Hardly night and day differences, but I've got a bit more play in the volume control even though I'm pretty much at 07:30 on low gain!

Now I need to figure out the connections from my DAC/CD player to both amps. I really should have got an amp with passthrough or at least XML in but there's not a lot of choice over here at the moment that I can see.

Thanks for the advice so far - it's really appreciated and helpful!

 

[gimmeheadroom]

Bit of an update in spending spree trial land. I got the SMSL SP200 amp and it did indeed bring my headphones to life in a way that my normal amp just doesn't - much fuller representation of the sound and way livelier. However, I think it was too much... Even on low gain, I'm turning the volume dial like a safe cracker to get sound and not blow my ears off. I had more play with older music, but modern music gives me no movement.

A shop near me had the Burson Soloist SL MK2 on open box sale, so I've got that here too. It's certainly a more premium feeling experiences than the SMSL and the sound seems fantastic to me: a bit more more open in the soundstage than the SMSL and a touch better bass. Hardly night and day differences, but I've got a bit more play in the volume control even though I'm pretty much at 07:30 on low gain!

Now I need to figure out the connections from my DAC/CD player to both amps. I really should have got an amp with passthrough or at least XML in but there's not a lot of choice over here at the moment that I can see.

Thanks for the advice so far - it's really appreciated and helpful!

Which headphone are you using that needs the volume control all the way down?

 

[Attalal]

Which headphone are you using that needs the volume control all the way down?

That's with both pairs of Beyerdynamics (Amirons and 1990s). I've had to return the Sundaras and there's nothing 'new' in yet. They're both 250ohm and about 102 sensitivity.

 

[gimmeheadroom]

That's with both pairs of Beyerdynamics (Amirons and 1990s). I've had to return the Sundaras and there's nothing 'new' in yet. They're both 250ohm and about 102 sensitivity.

Something is terribly wrong then. Are you sure the source which is driving the SP 200 is set to 0 dB?

 

[nishan99]

It's called the Elex but without the wide soundstage. I am not sure about the glasses tho, you need to do some research on that.

 

[Attalal]

Something is terribly wrong then. Are you sure the source which is driving the SP 200 is set to 0 dB?

There's no setting for changing the output, but the manual for the CDS50 does say the output is 0dB? What kind of volume positioning do you think I should be getting? With the Burson, it's still very low on the dial on low gain. Listening to old Cure, I was comfortably loud at 9:00. With modern music, I'm still around 07:30/08:00.

It's called the Elex but without the wide soundstage. I am not sure about the glasses tho, you need to do some research on that.

I'd love to give the Elex a whirl but Drop is out because of all the taxes. Though, having said that, I've just done the sums and I reckon the Elex would come in around £650 with tax, which isn't too bad - still £50 cheaper than the Ananda and £100 less than the LCD2C.

The 600 is a classic pair of cans. In some ways I don't think it's possible to do better at any price. The sound is beautifully natural, lifelike. They're great for many genres and it's hard to find a better pair of all-around headphones unless you want colored sound. The downside is they clamp pretty hard. That part can take a while to get used to or maybe some people never get used to it. The 600/650/6XX need plenty of voltage and will not perform well without enough amp. They scale like crazy with a good amp.

Interesting... How does the clamp compare to the 1990 do you know? I see you have the 1770, so I'm assuming the 1990/1770 clamp is comparable. I found the 1990 clamp pretty harsh to begin with but am quite happy with it now. I haven't tried any of the 6-- range and think that may an oversight. I can get a 2019 HD600 for £270 from Bax, which seems like a great deal.

At the moment, I'm enjoying both Beyers from the Burson, but feel like there's a sweet spot between I'm missing. The Amiron are a bit more open feeling and laidback, the 1990 are more in your face/middle of head, which is great for music with some drive, but the background details feel a little lost. I'm bouncing between the A and B pads on the 1990.

 

[gimmeheadroom]

There's no setting for changing the output, but the manual for the CDS50 does say the output is 0dB? What kind of volume positioning do you think I should be getting? With the Burson, it's still very low on the dial on low gain. Listening to old Cure, I was comfortably loud at 9:00. With modern music, I'm still around 07:30/08:00.



I'd love to give the Elex a whirl but Drop is out because of all the taxes. Though, having said that, I've just done the sums and I reckon the Elex would come in around £650 with tax, which isn't too bad - still £50 cheaper than the Ananda and £100 less than the LCD2C.



Interesting... How does the clamp compare to the 1990 do you know? I see you have the 1770, so I'm assuming the 1990/1770 clamp is comparable. I found the 1990 clamp pretty harsh to begin with but am quite happy with it now. I haven't tried any of the 6-- range and think that may an oversight. I can get a 2019 HD600 for £270 from Bax, which seems like a great deal.

At the moment, I'm enjoying both Beyers from the Burson, but feel like there's a sweet spot between I'm missing. The Amiron are a bit more open feeling and laidback, the 1990 are more in your face/middle of head, which is great for music with some drive, but the background details feel a little lost. I'm bouncing between the A and B pads on the 1990.

It's hard to know without having the gear but for the amp running on low gain it doesn't seem correct that you should have to have the volume almost all the way off for a 250 ohm headphone. If so, that means it would be unsuitable for most headphones being sold now.

The HD 600s clamp a lot more than the DT1770 and the pads hit your head in different places. The 600 pads feel larger and press behind my ears and feel like they're strangling you until you get used to them. After a few months you won't even remember...