[slwiser]

 

[axw]

Quote:

Could you point me where I can read that NFB-12 owners ditched their Lavry please ? I've tried to search but I must have done it wrong as I couldn't find the posts in question. Thanks !

 
I think I remember reading this few months back in the NFB-12 thread. It was not stated explicitly though. However, I managed to find it on another forum here but this regards NFB-2. Judging from the size of the gap between NFB-10 and DA10, I am inclined to believe the guy. 
 
In general, DA10 is often brought as an example of the older generation of $1000 dacs among Benchmark and Grace, see for example project86's excellent review of Yulong D100. He concludes that Yulong is in the same league as DA10, but half the price. I fully agree with this.
 
This is rather sad as the market is changing and today you can have much better value for the money. Lavry's last upgrade was DA-11, which as far as I remember, added more convenience but little if anything sound-wise. 

 

[robm321]

 
Quote:

probably you're referring to Sabre-based, not the Wolfson series..
 
and btw have you read about NFBs being sold after auditioning Lavry?  

 
I'm just pointing out that it's a slippery slope when you start stating "I kinda read somewhere, I think some random person on the internet sold something after getting the NFB" I think it just brings confusion and doesn't tell the whole story. 

 So I bring balance:
 
 
http://www.headfonia.com/no-music-audio-gd-nfb-12/
 
 
 
 

 

[axw]

Quote:

 
I'm just pointing out that it's a slippery slope when you start stating "I kinda read somewhere, I think some random person on the internet sold something after getting the NFB" I think it just brings confusion and doesn't tell the whole story. 

 So I bring balance:
 
http://www.headfonia.com/no-music-audio-gd-nfb-12/

 
What does your link tell about NFBs compared to Lavry, which is (was) the subject of this thread? 
 
I sold my Lavry after getting NFB-10ES -- but I am just another random person on the internet 

  It appears that the random people at the Australian forum share my view but wrt the cheaper NFB-2.
 
And by the way, it is very easy to find critical reviews of NFB-12,  I can post some more -- but the thing costs $200..

 

[anetode]

Quote:

Non-linear performance into headphone loads (it was actually hinted by MSRP rather then specifically naming the DA10). 

 
Strange, I've not heard anything about that. I own a DA11, which presumably has a similar type of output - though maybe upgraded. Never had a problem, except for a little background hiss when using an ultra-sensitive IEM.
 
Could you please offer a link that offers examples of these non-linearities in different loads?

 

[firev1]

 
Quote:

 
Strange, I've not heard anything about that. I own a DA11, which presumably has a similar type of output - though maybe upgraded. Never had a problem, except for a little background hiss when using an ultra-sensitive IEM.
 
Could you please offer a link that offers examples of these non-linearities in different loads?

Its kind of biased(company based after all) and does not explicitly state the DA10 but otherwise the test is easy to reproduce, here it is. 
 

 

[MayaTlab]

Quote:

 

Its kind of biased(company based after all) and does not explicitly state the DA10 but otherwise the test is easy to reproduce, here it is. 
 

It seems indeed that the MSRP may hint at the Lavry DA10, but on the other hand they say : "In contrast, the Benchmark DAC1 HDR maintained a 96 dB SNR due to its analog gain control", which, in proper english, may (or may not, depending on how you interpret the syntax) suggest that the other two did not have an analog volume control, while the Lavry does have one.
I'm not trying to defend the DA10 here, just saying that I'm not convinced just by looking at the MSRP.
 

 

[anetode]

Quote:

 

Its kind of biased(company based after all) and does not explicitly state the DA10 but otherwise the test is easy to reproduce, here it is. 
 

I've read through that before and now looking at it I'd say you're probably correct in the DA10 being included as the 1148$ sample. Nonetheless, the worst measurements from the mystery-tested DA10 resulted in .01-.02 % THD (and usually around .003%). The DAC1 puts forth a more impressive performance, but all of the tested head-amp DAC sections perform comfortably beyond the limits of audibility. According to these figures I don't think it's fair to say that the DA has problems head-amp performance-wise. And the DAC itself is a superb implementation with a unique digitally-controlled analog volume.

The DA11 is better yet, and it's crossfeed-like PIC function offers a great flexibility for tuning the apparent soundstage when listening to headphones. Not mention it still has plenty of oomph to drive something like the oldskool AKG K340.
 

 

[slwiser]

This newsletter article is based on an Dec 2011 date.  Who says that this is not a current DAC1 against a first edition DA10?  Nothing would suggest otherwise or counter to this.  Products are always in a state of flux and with good manufacturers always being improved in some ways. 
 
I will always remember the Pepsi challenge to Coke that I took at a mall back in the 80s.  I was always able to tell Coke from Pepsi because the Pepsi was cold while the Coke product was always served warm.  I told everyone to check this and they always were able to select the Coke product over the Pepsi in this challenge.  There are always ways to "game" a comparison to demonstrate whatever one wants to show.

 

[firev1]

Quote:

I've read through that before and now looking at it I'd say you're probably correct in the DA10 being included as the 1148$ sample. Nonetheless, the worst measurements from the mystery-tested DA10 resulted in .01-.02 % THD (and usually around .003%). The DAC1 puts forth a more impressive performance, but all of the tested head-amp DAC sections perform comfortably beyond the limits of audibility. According to these figures I don't think it's fair to say that the DA has problems head-amp performance-wise. And the DAC itself is a superb implementation with a unique digitally-controlled analog volume.

The DA11 is better yet, and it's crossfeed-like PIC function offers a great flexibility for tuning the apparent soundstage when listening to headphones. Not mention it still has plenty of oomph to drive something like the oldskool AKG K340.
 

I know that the tested head-amp sections perform well beyond audible limits, its just that at that price point, I would expect to see something fairly stellar with no obvious flaws especially with regards to SNR, its a mere -73db which while it would cover most/all CD recordings with no problem, is not really one would expect with a $1000+ DAC(but it would be good value for less than a 1k  no doubt). I do agree that the DA11 is a VERY nice DAC though(one of my uncles has one), if I had the money I would go for one(sadly I'm a student with no money).
 

 
Quote:

This newsletter article is based on an Dec 2011 date.  Who says that this is not a current DAC1 against a first edition DA10?  Nothing would suggest otherwise or counter to this.  Products are always in a state of flux and with good manufacturers always being improved in some ways. 
 
I will always remember the Pepsi challenge to Coke that I took at a mall back in the 80s.  I was always able to tell Coke from Pepsi because the Pepsi was cold while the Coke product was always served warm.  I told everyone to check this and they always were able to select the Coke product over the Pepsi in this challenge.  There are always ways to "game" a comparison to demonstrate whatever one wants to show.

Even if its gamed(which I somewhat doubt so,especially with the other suggested DAC), the results are easily verifiable, its not like APs are extremely hard to get these days. (for those who do want to try one for a short while AP does have a leasing program)
 


Quote:

 
What does your link tell about NFBs compared to Lavry, which is (was) the subject of this thread? 
 
I sold my Lavry after getting NFB-10ES -- but I am just another random person on the internet 

  It appears that the random people at the Australian forum share my view but wrt the cheaper NFB-2.
 
And by the way, it is very easy to find critical reviews of NFB-12,  I can post some more -- but the thing costs $200..

 
Just to say, I did not like my experience with the NFB-12(agree with mike there on most parts), so much for no feedback.... And the constant upgrading gives me the impression that kingwa never did proper product testing/ did not think through his designs properly. I would rather pay the premium to know and hear good, well verified products.

 

[anetode]

Quote:

I know that the tested head-amp sections perform well beyond audible limits, its just that at that price point, I would expect to see something fairly stellar with no obvious flaws especially with regards to SNR, its a mere -73db which while it would cover most/all CD recordings with no problem, is not really one would expect with a $1000+ DAC(but it would be good value for less than a 1k  no doubt). I do agree that the DA11 is a VERY nice DAC though(one of my uncles has one), if I had the money I would go for one(sadly I'm a student with no money).
 

I think you're confusing THD figures for SNR. The SNR for the DA10 is close to 100db.

 

[firev1]

Quote:

I think you're confusing THD figures for SNR. The SNR for the DA10 is close to 100db.

Strange, I know the AP says THD+N but the explanation on the Fig notation says otherwise...