[d64chad]

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[Redcarmoose]

From what it seems, headphones either lean towards a neutral/flat/uncolored sound, or a colored/non-flat sound. The consensus seems to be, that neutral headphones in general are usually a lot more laid-back and less energetic, and that "colored" headphones don't sound flat, but rather have a "V" shaped sound to them (where the mids are turned down quite a bit, and the highs and lows are boosted).

In my experience, ever since I've used my first pair of neutral headphones, non-neutral headphones sound worse in comparison, but that could just be because the other brands I've tested were the commercial ones. Although, I did test out a pair of OneOdio studio headphones, and... muffled. That's usually the experience I get from other headphones. They sound either too muffled, too "sizzly", or both. The thing that usually sticks out with these headphones are the bass.

In my opinion, neutral seems to be where it's at for clarity, but I'll admit that it does have a bit of a clustered sound, where too many instruments playing at once make them sound too homogeneous and non-separated, if that makes sense. Although, not sure if it's because of my particular pair (Sennheiser 5's series) or if that's just how they sound in general.

(BONUS: I do know that the HD 800s have been reviewed as having almost piercing and unsettling treble, while they're also regarded as probably the most accurate pair of headphones there are. Does this mean that the less-expensive headphones by Sennheiser (598s, 600s, 650s, 700s, etc.) all have hugely recessed treble?)

First off you don’t list your “neutral” headphone that changed your listening life. If we knew your idea of neutral we could help you more.

Everyone has a different idea of what neutral is anyway. The other forces at work here are attributed to the source and amplification you use. Also music genres listened to can affect the style of headphone a person ends up having success with.

What ends up happening occurs with a headphone response then the response can be altered if the amp or source is cold or warm. What I’m saying is this stuff can take time. The short route is you go to a show and listen to what others have achieved. Many times there will be one or two systems you can have some mental musical communication with. Much of this process is felt in the heart while listening and it’s something that can get confusing fast if you try and over think it. It’s all subjective, anyway.

But even if you take your dream system home, like the one you loved at the show, your still not out of the woods yet. Six months could go by and you start to learn more about yourself and your system you put together. Most successful systems had a couple tweaks here or there down the line. The final tweaks could be a different amp, or a modification to a headphone, simply bringing everything closer to the sound which was the goal.

Much like you said; it is based of previous listening experience. That said there is no right or wrong about putting a system together. So much is based on what style of sound signature your used to. So you now think that heavy color could flaw the detail in the listening experience. But to go back........simply realize if someone only listened to a treble centric system for six months even a close to flat response would sound too bass heavy. That’s how the mind works.

But as a whole if you’ve been around Head-Fi the term audiophile sound has changed in the last 7 years. It started around 2012 when Beats hit the market, then the M-50 became a sensation at Head-Fi. Slowly it seems more bass was starting to become acceptable. And in a way you always had different sound signature camps, the bass heads or the treble heads, or those seeking what they think is neutral. It all comes down to putting a system together that supports your listening genre, and a system that keeps you thrilled month in a month out.

For many this search ends up being very active with the folks going back and listening to older favorite headphones to realize that their sound signature taste changed and they have now moved to a “better” and more satisfied listening experience.

But your question is very general in a way as besides V shaped and flat there are all kinds of headphones with all kinds of signatures and graphs which show peaks and dips in all kinds of places. Each headphone has it’s own personality beyond just colored or flat.

The best advise is listen to a lot of gear and learn what you like in a signature. It also helps to have other signatures on hand to validate what you like and give yourself room to explore what you may like in the future.

I thought the same way about the HD800s but they had wonderful imaging and detail. There may be no perfect headphones but many perfect listening experiences along the journey?

 

[ProtegeManiac]

From what it seems, headphones either lean towards a neutral/flat/uncolored sound, or a colored/non-flat sound. The consensus seems to be, that neutral headphones in general are usually a lot more laid-back and less energetic, and that "colored" headphones don't sound flat, but rather have a "V" shaped sound to them (where the mids are turned down quite a bit, and the highs and lows are boosted).

In my experience, ever since I've used my first pair of neutral headphones, non-neutral headphones sound worse in comparison, but that could just be because the other brands I've tested were the commercial ones. Although, I did test out a pair of OneOdio studio headphones, and... muffled. That's usually the experience I get from other headphones. They sound either too muffled, too "sizzly", or both. The thing that usually sticks out with these headphones are the bass.

In absolute terms, then yes, the only way to go when shooting for "high fidelity" is neutral, but it must by necessity also be absolutely neutral, with no coloration whatsoever. That means it will play every frequency within the audible range at the same level, in other words you have to have a headphone (or speaker) that measures absolutely flat, neither of which exists yet.

In other words, there's just a range of headphones considered to be "hi-fi" in the sense that they're shooting for a neutral response and get close enough, but how close and in what particular way they do not differs. Each of these is still colored in their own way, just not as much as non-hifi gear.

In my opinion, neutral seems to be where it's at for clarity, but I'll admit that it does have a bit of a clustered sound, where too many instruments playing at once make them sound too homogeneous and non-separated, if that makes sense. Although, not sure if it's because of my particular pair (Sennheiser 5's series) or if that's just how they sound in general.

Neutral does not always mean it images properly. Or rather, in Sennheiser's case, it's like how "neutral" still comes in different flavors due to different compromises. In this case, Sennheiser tends to go with proportional imaging position rather than just a large soundstage (if at least on the HD580/580J/600/650/660S). Even the K7xx series when not using the angled pads can project a wide soundstage but the cymbals are too out to the flanks and too forward. And even on the angled pads the cymbals are pushed back but can still sound too far to the sides, which is why sacrificng some absolute width using Crossfeed as the cymbals tend to move farther to the center than the guitars anyway isn't a bad move even on headphones like these.

If you want a less congested soundstage and more air around them use AKG. If you can't or don't want to use Crossfeed then use EQ to tame the high frequency peaks.

(BONUS: I do know that the HD 800s have been reviewed as having almost piercing and unsettling treble, while they're also regarded as probably the most accurate pair of headphones there are. Does this mean that the less-expensive headphones by Sennheiser (598s, 600s, 650s, 700s, etc.) all have hugely recessed treble?)

If the treble is just piercing, it can be the recording, but if graphs show treble peaks, then you can't regard that as that high up above all others in terms of fidelity. it's just making one compromise to get something else. In this case you get imaging better than even the K702's but at the cost of that treble peak.

Also if one headphone has a sharp treble peak then just because something else doesn't try to stab your eardrums doesn't mean it's totally flawed in another way. The HD660 might have a stronger response below 1000hz than above it, but its response is still smoother than the peaks on the HD800. You're not going to get the kind of imaging that one has though.

 

[buke9]

Well I don’t find the 800’s to be piercing to my ears but my ears are getting up there on age and loud concerts in my youth probably has something to do with that too as in Kiss in around 77 or 78 damn was that a loud concert along with Nugent,Van Halen and Black Sabbath around the same time frame all were incredibly loud as ears rang for a few days afterwards not real smart now but they were fun.

 

[theveterans]

In my opinion, neutral seems to be where it's at for clarity, but I'll admit that it does have a bit of a clustered sound, where too many instruments playing at once make them sound too homogeneous and non-separated, if that makes sense. Although, not sure if it's because of my particular pair (Sennheiser 5's series) or if that's just how they sound in general.

That's where I disagree. Neutral does NOT mean clustered, rather I call it low-fidelity neutral headphones. If you've ever heard a neutral sounding hi-fi IEM such as Shure KSE1500, it showcases incredible resolution and detail retrieval even on the most complex passages while sounding neutral based your description would be what I call true "neutral". I gave that IEM as an example because it's the closest in tonality and resolution of any IEM I've heard to that of a room treated studio monitors that I use as my reference for neutral sound.

 

[WildStyle-R11]

I seem to think these days that Clustered sound comes down to your hearing (Well almost everything does). Some headphones might fix this, but overall with certain songs a lot of headphones I have tried sound clustered.

 

[castleofargh]

From what it seems, headphones either lean towards a neutral/flat/uncolored sound, or a colored/non-flat sound. The consensus seems to be, that neutral headphones in general are usually a lot more laid-back and less energetic, and that "colored" headphones don't sound flat, but rather have a "V" shaped sound to them (where the mids are turned down quite a bit, and the highs and lows are boosted).

In my experience, ever since I've used my first pair of neutral headphones, non-neutral headphones sound worse in comparison, but that could just be because the other brands I've tested were the commercial ones. Although, I did test out a pair of OneOdio studio headphones, and... muffled. That's usually the experience I get from other headphones. They sound either too muffled, too "sizzly", or both. The thing that usually sticks out with these headphones are the bass.

In my opinion, neutral seems to be where it's at for clarity, but I'll admit that it does have a bit of a clustered sound, where too many instruments playing at once make them sound too homogeneous and non-separated, if that makes sense. Although, not sure if it's because of my particular pair (Sennheiser 5's series) or if that's just how they sound in general.

(BONUS: I do know that the HD 800s have been reviewed as having almost piercing and unsettling treble, while they're also regarded as probably the most accurate pair of headphones there are. Does this mean that the less-expensive headphones by Sennheiser (598s, 600s, 650s, 700s, etc.) all have hugely recessed treble?)

HIFI aims at reproducing accurately something, obviously proper frequency response is part of it.
now your own body is different from mine, we both have a lifetime experience of hearing sounds modified through our head related transfer function(HRTF), and that's what defines normal/neutral sound for us(spoiler: it's actually not as we're utter garbage in the role of being flat microphones).
but all that doesn't matter because in our own subjective experience of reality, the way we perceive things is how they "really" sound. so all is well. at least until we start using headphones, because headphones don't send the sound on our body for it to be modified how we're used to. and that's where our individual body differences becomes very relevant. to me a headphone might seem to have too much 4khz and not to you. there is always a matter of habits, taste, and the genre of music we listen to, but there is also the very real possibility that my eardrum is getting significantly more 4khz than it would with a real punctual sound source in the room that would bounce on my head and ears.
so in that context of headphones, there is no strict definition of neutral. there is a neutral for you, and a neutral for me. and most likely both have a lot in common because we're both humans, but it's also very likely that some distinct differences make the sound you hear different from the sound I hear.
all that to say:
-neutral amp or DAC is a simple concept. if it's electrically flat while in typical use, it's neutral.
-for speakers, the Harman guys have done a great job defining what is neutral as a system of speaker+room+listening position. and for the most part that will feel neutral to all listeners at that position. unless they're crazy tall or small, then maybe the speakers don't handle the angle too well, but otherwise we have our universal neutral.
-neutral headphone only has some curves based on averaging a bunch of people, and no actual claim to know what neutral is or that it will always be neutral for you. in my case, I have yet to try a headphone and think that I don't have to EQ it to hear a more neutral frequency response. it surely happens to some people, I just didn't get that lucky to have a manufacturer make a headphone right for me.


other than that, I have weird signatures that I enjoy from time to time because they bring forward specific instruments and I enjoy the result for some genres of music. but that's fun, not fidelity.
and another important aspect of fidelity with headphones, is that you're not really having it. chances are that your favorite album was mastered for speakers so the stereo is all wrong when used on headphones. again personal habits and taste decide on what we like most, I know several people who enjoy their music more on headphones than they do on speakers, but I also know a good deal of people who use headphones only because they can't make too much noise(wife, neighbors, a raptor next to your car ...). I don't mention it to spit on headphones, but warn that the signature we settle on for a headphone would probably change a little if the signal coming into it was including all the changes that speakers+room+our head would normally provide. same thing for binaural music, often time the best experience will be with a certain type of signature, one that you may not favor when using non binaural material. all in all what we consider normal headphone use is a pretty specific listening environment and the notion of fidelity is strongly debatable(just like it is with speakers in a room as both influence greatly the sound we're going to hear).

 

[Rhamnetin]

There is a definite correlation here. Too low of a treble response in a "warm, smooth, laid back" sounding headphone or speaker is going to mean it's not as transparent or detailed as could be.

A good example is the Audeze LCD-4 which I owned this year. Despite having super thin (measured in nanometers) diaphragms and perhaps the strongest magnets in any planar magnetic headphone (arranged in a dual sided symmetric geometry I believe, and with fazors to increase transparency), it sounds considerably less transparent than the Focal Utopia which is merely a dynamic driver headphone that seems less transparent on paper. The Utopia is even considerably more transparent straight out of a Chord Hugo 2, versus the LCD-4 being driven either the same way and even when driven by the Hugo 2 + Pure BiPolar amp.

Likewise, when I pair my Stax SR-009 + KGSSHV Carbon system with a "warm, smooth, laid back" sounding DAC (e.g. Denafrips Venus), transparency and the immediate nature of detail retrieval goes down.

 

[buke9]

To me the thing is what sounds good to you. You can go what sounds neutral or what is more v shaped to you or what you you like it is your decision .

 

[SilverEars]

Well I don’t find the 800’s to be piercing to my ears but my ears are getting up there on age and loud concerts in my youth probably has something to do with that too as in Kiss in around 77 or 78 damn was that a loud concert along with Nugent,Van Halen and Black Sabbath around the same time frame all were incredibly loud as ears rang for a few days afterwards not real smart now but they were fun.

I just don't understand people that claim it doesn't sound piercing. That's a mystery of life for me. I have such a dislike for the headphone due to it's tonal imbalance (which I find to be the case), and the constant rambling of amps and amps and amps and $$$ for amps and more amps. Ugghh. Not for me. It's not a reasonable headphone in my view (but really a lot of audiophile headphones arn't I guess).

Anyway, go to meets, listen to different setups (people put in lots of time on their setups), and over time after trying out various headphones, you realize what your preference is. It can be the Harmon curve or maybe not exactly.

Actually spend good amount to time for each headphone to be familiar with them. Try out as many genre you can with each. You start to figure things out from there. You start to run into oddities, you rationalize, maybe discover something new to explain things, and get a good feel of audio.

But, one should look at graphs or measurements for statistical sake, and to get familar with frequencies, characteristics of headphones. By statistical, I mean you become more familar with frequency ranges in relationship to how you hear, and perhaps be helpful in writing subjective impressions to be more precise to one's intentions.

Ideally, we should all be impartial as possible when passing on information others will take in to make their decision (maybe a lot of money for them!).

 

[d64chad]

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