[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ADD /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have plenty of examples of CDs with no hard edge at all, and plenty of vinyl with a terrible hardness to the sound. And vice versa. Once I started to hear quality digital front ends over the last year, I realised that for all these years gone by I had never given CD a decent go.

Just curious as to what CD player you are using now? also be interested to know of your experiences of finding CDs which render strings believably with no "hard edge" distortions...

 

[ADD]

Quote:

Originally Posted by memepool /img/forum/go_quote.gif Just curious as to what CD player you are using now? also be interested to know of your experiences of finding CDs which render strings believably with no "hard edge" distortions...

I don't use a CD player at present. My existing CDs are ripped using EAC and I use a Sony PCM D50 as the transport. Increasingly I am downloading 16-44 files instead. That said, I am contemplating either saving up for a Cambridge 840C (which is markedly superior to the Sony), or saving up for a DAC, into which I will connect the Sony.

Earlier this year I ditched about 95% of my CD collection because that 95% sounded awful (before anyone asks...95% of my vinyl collection sounded awful too). I am now only buying music that I can pre-audition, which is why my collection of music is extremely small thus far (I only started to build the collection a couple of months ago).

Some examples of CDs / 16-44 downloads in my extremely small collection which render strings believably are:

Schumann / Mendelssohn violin concertos (Szeryng / Mercury)
Lalo / Schumann / Saint-Saens cello concertos (Starker / Mercury) **
John Field piano concertos (set released on Chandos)
Haydn Symphonies (the Academy of Ancient Music Hogwood set released on Decca)
Mozart Horn Concertos (Tuckwell & Maag / Decca)
Brahms Symphony No. 3 (Karajan, Berlin Phil / DG - 1978)
Cramer Piano Concertos (Chandos)
Mozart Symphony No. 35 (Acousence records)
Tchaikovsky Serenade for Strings (Pentatone)
Tchaikovsky Orchestral Suites (Chandos)
Mozart Symphonies 5 and 29 (Pentatone)
Haydn Symphonies 22, 44 and 64 (Pentatone)
Schmitt Early Symphonies (Pentatone)
Bartok Orchestral Works (Mercury)
Mozart Piano concertos 8&9 (Uchida / Decca)
Franck Symphonic Variations (Curzon / Decca) **


In the case of the titles with the two asterisks, this means I have heard the audiophile vinyl reissue of these as well, but that the CD or 16-44 file is markedly superior on my opinion. Given the massive superiority of the Cambridge 840C over every other digital source I have ever auditioned, it would not surprise me if most CDs sound better than vinyl - not just "select" ones.

Of course, the above list does not mean those are the only titles that sound believable - just the ones I have purchased over the last few months.

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ADD /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't use a CD player at present. My existing CDs are ripped using EAC and I use a Sony PCM D50 as the transport. Increasingly I am downloading 16-44 files instead. That said, I am contemplating either saving up for a Cambridge 840C (which is markedly superior to the Sony), or saving up for a DAC, into which I will connect the Sony. Earlier this year I ditched about 95% of my CD collection because that 95% sounded awful (before anyone asks...95% of my vinyl collection sounded awful too). I am now only buying music that I can pre-audition, which is why my collection of music is extremely small thus far (I only started to build the collection a couple of months ago).

Extreme measures indeed. It's that you thought 95% of CD's sounded poor that confirms my own experience. Whereas although I agree that a large proportion of vinyl pressings aren't great either, speaking mainly of old ones rather than re-issues which I haven't really bothered that much with, if I like the music enough I'll go to lengths to transcribe it trying different stylus profiles and arms etc.
While some CD players undoubtedly make some CDs more listenable, I find the newer ones actually sound worse with poorly recorded discs giving you more insight into the shortcomings of the transcription / recording.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ADD /img/forum/go_quote.gif Given the massive superiority of the Cambridge 840C over every other digital source I have ever auditioned, it would not surprise me if most CDs sound better than vinyl - not just "select" ones.

I must admit to not being that impressed by the Cambridge, finding it a bit too much of a good thing to listen to for extended periods. Have you heard the Stello DA 100?

 

[ADD]

The old vinyl is where it is at imo. Back then they knew how to hang microphones, they knew how to make lacquers and press records. These days they are reissuing from master tapes half a century old and some of the Mercuries are a very good example of why the CD is better - the masters have just deteriorated too much. The problem too, is that many of these antiquated masters are second generation masters and not the originals. It is no wonder I am just as happy or happier with the CDs.

The Cozart-Fine vinyl reissues prove that vinyl is technically capable of a higher level of performance I admit - but for practical purposes, Cozart-Fine, Grundman and Kevin Gray can't reissue everything and so we are left with mediocrity, as we are in the CD business or indeed the high resolution download business.

I am pretty new to auditioning CD players to be honest. I have only seriously listened to the Cambridge range plus their DACMagic. Although incredibly impressed with the 840C, I would add the usual caveat that my opinion is only as good in relation to what I have heard.

I have not heard anything from the Stello range, but would like to hear their player and their DAC, since it is one of the few reasonably priced ones that has selectable upsampling. I would also very much like to hear the Rega Apollo. I can't help thinking that a company like Rega would not want to put their name on any source device that was not musical.

I don't think it just better CD reproduction that can actually be worse on account of the greater degree of insight. I am finding this with some high resolution digital too. High resolution done wrong is the most unlistenable source there is to my ears. Many of those Linn records downloads sound intolerably awful and are far and away the worst examples of string sound I have ever heard in the digital domain - way worse than the earliest CDs made in the 80s. I have no idea as to whether something is seriously going wrong in the mastering process or whether it sounded that bad coming out of the mixing desk.

They have a free download at the moment - the last movement of a Mozart Symphony. Listen to it and anyone who knows what a violin sounds like will cry. It is the absolute worst recording I have ever heard in my entire life - no kidding. And that includes recordings I have heard going back to the acoustic recording era.

 

[intoart]

Must be a nostalgia thing.

It certainly can't be the sound quality, since CDs are technically far better (though they can be ruined by bad mastering, just as records can.)

 

[tom hankins]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ADD /img/forum/go_quote.gif What you state above is only true in terms of percentage changes in media sales over 2007-2008. Vinyl LP sales still represent a trifling 2.9% of total physical media sales in 2008 according to the RIAA. Also, you neglect to mention that it is downloads which are ever-increasingly taking sales from the physical formats, plus the fact that analogue cassette practically died between 2007 and 2008. Of the total commercial music sales in units including downloads, vinyl of all descriptions constitutes a mere 0.7% of total music sales in 2008. Back in 2004, that same percentage was 0.31%. Do you really think a percentage change of 0.39% over 4 years represents a resurgence? Sure, there is anecdotal evidence of a return to the vinyl hobby and it is not hard to imagine people buying turntables to play existing record collections (plus the second hand market) but in my view you simply can't use the RIAA figures to justify anything at all, except how incredibly insignficant vinyl is compared to the other formats.

Your missing the point. The original post is about the rise in vinyl sales. Not the amount it takes up in the overall music sales. It is up. The sales of new vinyl is way up the last two years. My wife and I travel alot to different cities around the country and we are amazed at what once were only used vinyl stores, now sell alot of new releases and remasters. Also Best Buy has anounced it will make room for around 200 titles per store on vinyl. that alone tells you the interest in vinyl has gone up.
http://www.nypost.com/seven/04272009...nyl_166384.htm

What vinyl system do you have to draw your conclusions on the poor remastering of new vinyl?

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ADD /img/forum/go_quote.gif The old vinyl is where it is at imo. Back then they knew how to hang microphones, they knew how to make lacquers and press records. These days they are reissuing from master tapes half a century old and some of the Mercuries are a very good example of why the CD is better - the masters have just deteriorated too much. The problem too, is that many of these antiquated masters are second generation masters and not the originals. It is no wonder I am just as happy or happier with the CDs.

I'd guess they are rushing releases out to cash in on the "Vinyl Renaissance" without taking due care and attention to properly set up the tape recorders and pre-amps etc. A lot of these skills are all but lost unfortunately. Classical records were almost completely unavailable for years and years and now we are awash with re-releases. It's not all that surprising that only a small proportion are really exceptional.
I prefer to hunt for the originals from the 1950s and 60s with the aid of a good record cleaning machine. Even if you only turn up a few in every hundred that are worth having it's all part of the fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ADD /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't think it just better CD reproduction that can actually be worse on account of the greater degree of insight. I am finding this with some high resolution digital too. High resolution done wrong is the most unlistenable source there is to my ears. Many of those Linn records downloads sound intolerably awful and are far and away the worst examples of string sound I have ever heard in the digital domain - way worse than the earliest CDs made in the 80s. I have no idea as to whether something is seriously going wrong in the mastering process or whether it sounded that bad coming out of the mixing desk.

I reckon a lot of the problems with modern recordings are down to using lots of close microphone placement feeding a desk into multitrack recorders. Whether 16.44 or high res, PCM recording still works in the same way and is optimised for keeping levels as close to digital zero as possible to reduce distortion, which results in forensic detail at the expense of coherent spacial information.

 

[.coco]

It was confirmed to me that vinyl is back in into the mainstream style when I saw an LP section in Best Buy.

 

[mark_h]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ADD /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have not heard anything from the Stello range, but would like to hear their player and their DAC, since it is one of the few reasonably priced ones that has selectable upsampling. I would also very much like to hear the Rega Apollo. I can't help thinking that a company like Rega would not want to put their name on any source device that was not musical. I don't think it just better CD reproduction that can actually be worse on account of the greater degree of insight. I am finding this with some high resolution digital too. High resolution done wrong is the most unlistenable source there is to my ears. Many of those Linn records downloads sound intolerably awful and are far and away the worst examples of string sound I have ever heard in the digital domain - way worse than the earliest CDs made in the 80s. I have no idea as to whether something is seriously going wrong in the mastering process or whether it sounded that bad coming out of the mixing desk.

I have had similar experiences with Linn, I have also had some poor experiences with 180 DMM Remasters I have purchased recently?

What is critical to vinyl collecting and enjoyment is a fair record cleaning machine, it can breathe new life into old records.

 

[linuxworks]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif (No way I'll ever stop spinning the black discs, though.)

V has no place in my home. I'm old enough to remember when V was the ONLY real playback choice (other than R2R).

each pop, crackle and clipped/bent off plastic peak (lol) makes me glad that we no longer HAVE to deal with such a 20-minute-per-flip procedure ever again.

if I had material that was only on lp, that would be one thing; and I'd do my best job at an a/d capture and probably spend weeks editing the damned file to clean it up and make it semi presentable. then the record gets stored and never used again.

just BAD memories of the whole lp experience. blech! so very glad its now gone, for all practical purposes (in my world).

each time I cue up (heh) a song on my 'mpd' player daemon on my pc and see the progress bar floating across the lcd display as the song plays - I'm reminded how primitive things were, as little as 20 yrs ago.

 

[ozz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by linuxworks /img/forum/go_quote.gif V has no place in my home. I'm old enough to remember when V was the ONLY real playback choice (other than R2R). each pop, crackle and clipped/bent off plastic peak (lol) makes me glad that we no longer HAVE to deal with such a 20-minute-per-flip procedure ever again. if I had material that was only on lp, that would be one thing; and I'd do my best job at an a/d capture and probably spend weeks editing the damned file to clean it up and make it semi presentable. then the record gets stored and never used again. just BAD memories of the whole lp experience. blech! so very glad its now gone, for all practical purposes (in my world). each time I cue up (heh) a song on my 'mpd' player daemon on my pc and see the progress bar floating across the lcd display as the song plays - I'm reminded how primitive things were, as little as 20 yrs ago.

I will somewhat agree the amount of money to get a great vinyl rig up and
going is more than I want to spend when SACD has given me what I want
and now Blu-Ray fills that gap along with better video to enhance that live
performance feel. But for all the recordings that can only be had on vinyl then a good rig is mandatory and I think some are great eye candy but at
51 and I have been through a lot of formats vinyl was never music nirvana for me close though.

 

[linuxworks]

playing records is a destructive act.

the idea of a 'destructive read' should have died years ago when the last of the 'contact style' laser^Wvideo-discs left the scene

high end or not - unless you are laser reading your discs, you are destroying them each time you read/listen to them. blech! stone knives and bearskins. brrrr!

 

[grawk]

entropy is part of life

 

[ozz]

So spinning vinyl is a full contact sport.

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by linuxworks /img/forum/go_quote.gif high end or not - unless you are laser reading your discs, you are destroying them each time you read/listen to them. blech! stone knives and bearskins. brrrr!

There is actually a laser turntable but it's expensive and far from perfected.

A good turntable tracking at 1.5 gms which is the average does negligible damage to your records. They are designed to heat up and reform as the needle tracks.

Lps will still be spinning when every optical disc you own is landfill guaranteed.