[Maxvla]

In my experience after many years of headphoning with full size headphones then picking up a couple of IEMs recently is that IEMs present as close to speaker/live sound as is possible. I've never experienced this level of accuracy in forward imaging on any full size headphone and I've tried many of the top dogs, even the K1000, which I find inferior to the IEMs I'm using. After this revelation I've sworn off full size headphones entirely. I'm still willing to try them, but I won't be expecting much.

Listening to the HE-6 and HD600 that I owned for a while on classical music I had a hard time picking out (even the general vicinity) the woodwind/brass section because it was in the middle. With these IEMs (and even my cheap crappy ones) I can point directly to where the sound is coming from in my mind.

I'm planning a venture to high end IEM land when I can try out the demo models at RMAF in October.

 

[kova4a]

Well, I agree that with iems you kinda get a better front image of the sound. What I'm talking about though is not pure sound positioning but the extension of the sound in the distance. For instance, with the iems I consider to have awesome soundstage, the sound clearly extends to the side of your head and its seems that it's not in your head but its coming from somewhere in the distance to you side and that's what I refer to saying wide soundstage (like the drums are closer to your side, the guitars are further and so on). With the front imaging though things are different - the instrumental positioning can be great and you can tell in your mind if the sound is coming  from the front but the extension in the distance is hard to get. Thus, you can get a sound image which is very wide and even high but not like really 3d. Well, of course different people perceive sound differently, so, the way my brain perceives sound may be completely different from yours.

 

[Maxvla]

3D is really how I best describe IEM soundstage, the sense of space is impressive. With classical music, most of my recordings I feel like the conductor with the violins on my direct left to middle left, woodwind/brass/violas/percussion middle. cellos and bass direct right to middle right. It's a sound that is very engaging that I've never experienced with any full size headphone.

Since I'm a violist myself, though, sometimes I reverse the sides to hear it like if I were sitting in the viola section. Violins on the right, cellos/bass on the left.

 

[Pianist]

^ You really need to try FX700.

 

[kova4a]

Well, that was exactly my point - you can hear like the violins are next to you to your left and the violas further away from them to your left (just an example) but thats the side imaging - for the front imaging for instance things are different coz you can hear the vocalist in the middle in front of you but there is no forward extension and you brain doesn't position the sound of the drummer behind him or sth like that. Maybe it's just me having hard time to explain it and because English isn't my native language. Overall, I agree soundstage is real, I agree there are some really airy iems out there but airy sound and good positioning is not really the 3d sound you get at a live concert or at the cinema surrounded with a bunch of speakers although I haven't heard FX700 and only ie8, which has one of the best soundstages I've heard in an iem.

 

[kova4a]

I just read joker's review on the FX700 and according to him it has good soundstage but not the "out-of-the-head feal of the ie8". I guess that just proves how different people perceive soundstage differently. He, also says that they have v-shaped sound, so, I guess that proves my experience with iems and that the ones that have more laid back mids compared to the lows and the hight tend to have better soundstage. I'll still try the fx700 as soon as I have a chance.

 

[High_Q]

Interesting point.  Possibly the mids gives perception of the singer being close by as the mids lets in vocal frequencies.  That may make it sound much narrower sound stage, since its more intimate.  So, with that, frequency response do effect sound stage perception.
 
Quote:

I just read joker's review on the FX700 and according to him it has good soundstage but not the "out-of-the-head feal of the ie8". I guess that just proves how different people perceive soundstage differently. He, also says that they have v-shaped sound, so, I guess that proves my experience with iems and that the ones that have more laid back mids compared to the lows and the hight tend to have better soundstage. I'll still try the fx700 as soon as I have a chance.

 

 

[Maxvla]

@ Kova

You said IEMs weren't 3D sounding. I said they were and explained how. You seemed to try to redress my comments to suit your needs to say they weren't 3D, when you didn't get the essence of what I was saying. From IEMs I get the full rotation of directional sound typical of human hearing (slightly behind left to slightly behind right) in good definition, but I also get depth in all those angles. The violins (2nd violin section) that are to my front left sound nearer than the flutes that are sitting behind them, as they should. I appreciate your difference of opinion, but don't misuse my words.

The presentation of these IEMs is such that I have difficulty realizing the sound is coming from inside my ears instead of in front and around me. I try to tell myself this, but my brain doesn't agree with what it is interpreting. With normal headphones I have to tell my brain that it's supposed to sound realistic, but my brain says.. 'ok well it doesn't but we'll go with it'. I got through my listening with normal headphones because I thought that was the best you could do regarding presentation. With these IEMs it's the other way around; by default I hear it in a 3D setting without thinking about it at all. My listening sessions are much more relaxed and I can just let the music flow instead of constantly telling myself this sounds good.

In every aspect other than soundstage and imaging I prefer some of the high end full size phones out there, but of course we are comparing $20 and $200 IEMs to gear well over $1k. I loved the tonality and texture from my HE-6, but the sound stage was a deal breaker. Hence, this is why I'm planning on getting high end customs a la JH3A or the like later this year to close the quality gap while retaining the sound stage of the lower end IEMs.

 

[Maxvla]

Interesting point.  Possibly the mids gives perception of the singer being close by as the mids lets in vocal frequencies.  That may make it sound much narrower sound stage, since its more intimate.  So, with that, frequency response do effect sound stage perception.
 


 

Agreed. This is one of the reasons I'm shooting to the top of the IEM market to find the most resolving IEM out there (high extension) that still sounds realistic to my tastes.

 

[kova4a]

@ Maxvla Sorry, if you think I misused your words - I just understood them differently. I though you're talking only by positioning (front left, front, front right) and not about depth when talking for the front imagining. Coz I generally perceive depth in a more limited way extending to the sides - the best way I can describe it is like that "(  ( (.) )  )" (I'm the dot) I can get depth to my left and right, to my left front and left back, my right front and right back but the middle front and middle back depth is something that my brain can't perceive correctly with iems (imagine the example with the bracket and the dot I gave above but turned vertically - I can't get that. It's like all the instruments in the center are next to each other but at one line - maybe that's just me and my mind.

 

[Maxvla]

No worries, just wanted to be sure I was clear.

The problem you have with depth is not one I have with my particular IEMs, but it is exactly the problem I have with almost every full size headphone.

 

[TrantaLocked]

 
Quote:

No worries, just wanted to be sure I was clear.

The problem you have with depth is not one I have with my particular IEMs, but it is exactly the problem I have with almost every full size headphone.

I love my IE7s but I still like the airyness of full size headphones more than IEMs, even if positioning and depth may not be as accurate. The IE7s almost give me the wide feeling that full headphones naturally give being much farther away from the head, but because the IE7, being an IEM, is actually in the ear canal, I can hear more detail. 
 
And I just realized my post wasn't really related to your quote. Oh well

 

[chelboed]

Well, regarding isolation and danger using IEM's...I just went to the store. Had my IEM's in but no music playing at the time I pulled out of the driveway. (this is not the place for a "no headphone's behind the wheel rant, btw) When I got to the store, there was no music playing. I pulled out my IEM's and to my surprise, the car stereo was playing my kid's music, and my seatbelt alarm was going off. Neither of which I was able to hear with my Turbines in and no music playing through them. I really don't have to use much volume through them to get a nice listenable level with crisp, clear perceived music b/c all that other noise is being blocked out by the seal of the IEM. When I use my PortaPro's and in a car, I have to turn them up higher to drown out the ambient noise (wind noise) thuse driving a higher SPL into my ear.
 
The results? My ears ring louder (tinnitus) after using the PortaPro's than when using the Turbines. The proof is in the symptoms folks. (but it should be common knowledge)
 
 
 
 
As for soundstage: I think I'm keeping the Turbines. I mucked around with the "Stereo Width" and "Crossfeed" in Rockbox on my Clip+ and have opened up the perceived soundstage a bit. It's unreal how much Rockbox kills stock firmware. I turned the Crossfeed off and the Stereo Width to 100% and it sounds like things are extreme Left and Right with some obvious central "in your face". With my Crossfeed on and my Channel to Custom and Stereo width to approx 120%...I get a drastic change in position of instruments and vocals. More of a hemispherical dispersion of sound instead of in your face and right in your ears. I feel a larger radius of sound source further away from my face.
 
 
Rockbox...um...rox.

 

[TrantaLocked]

 
Quote:

Well, regarding isolation and danger using IEM's...I just went to the store. Had my IEM's in but no music playing at the time I pulled out of the driveway. (this is not the place for a "no headphone's behind the wheel rant, btw) When I got to the store, there was no music playing. I pulled out my IEM's and to my surprise, the car stereo was playing my kid's music, and my seatbelt alarm was going off. Neither of which I was able to hear with my Turbines in and no music playing through them. I really don't have to use much volume through them to get a nice listenable level with crisp, clear perceived music b/c all that other noise is being blocked out by the seal of the IEM. When I use my PortaPro's and in a car, I have to turn them up higher to drown out the ambient noise (wind noise) thuse driving a higher SPL into my ear.
 
The results? My ears ring louder (tinnitus) after using the PortaPro's than when using the Turbines. The proof is in the symptoms folks. (but it should be common knowledge)
 
 
 
 
As for soundstage: I think I'm keeping the Turbines. I mucked around with the "Stereo Width" and "Crossfeed" in Rockbox on my Clip+ and have opened up the perceived soundstage a bit. It's unreal how much Rockbox kills stock firmware. I turned the Crossfeed off and the Stereo Width to 100% and it sounds like things are extreme Left and Right with some obvious central "in your face". With my Crossfeed on and my Channel to Custom and Stereo width to approx 120%...I get a drastic change in position of instruments and vocals. More of a hemispherical dispersion of sound instead of in your face and right in your ears. I feel a larger radius of sound source further away from my face.
 
 
Rockbox...um...rox.

Interesting, I remember Rockbox but never tried it because at the time it wasn't compatible with the Clip+. It sounds fun. Does it degrade from battery life though?

 

[kova4a]

+1 for rockbox! I don't remember how my clip was before but I think it has better battery life with rockbox.