[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwkarth /img/forum/go_quote.gif If I recall correctly, George Cardas used to mention a number of big studios using his cables for their bones.

Sales pitch.

I've supervised recording and mixing at dozens of studios. I'm telling you something I know here from first hand experience. Sound studios do not use high end cabling. They buy spindles of the same sort of cabling that Radio Shack uses and put their own connectors on it. They spend money on high end microphones, mixing boards mike pres and compressors. The patch cables they use to connect the electric guitars and the wiring under the board is plain vanilla. Only audiophools spend money on expensive wires.

See ya
Steve

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwkarth /img/forum/go_quote.gif You can choose to interpret my motives for saying what I said in any way you choose, however, I know my motives are pure. How about yours?

I'm talking about logical thought process and arguing on point. When I point out a fallacy in your argument, I'm not disparaging your intent.

If a high end preamp is too noisy to reveal the differences between cables, the difference is totally inconsequential. Most people use equipment with volume pots and switching ability.

See ya
Steve

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by meat01 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Then you are basically saying that the audible differences in cables are so minute that you do not believe that you could consistently prove that there is a difference in cables without knowing which one you are listening to. Could you reliably tell the difference blind between wine and water? Coke or Pepsi? Why not cables? What is a better way to really determine if there is a consistent audible difference in cables? Do you think knowing which one you are listening to is really a good test and would reliably prove that there is an audible difference in cables? Anyone could say they hear differences if they knew which one they were listening to. Sorry, but blind is the only way to take placebo out of the equation. What is wrong with not knowing which cable you are listening to? What other reason does one not believe in blind testing if it is not feeling confident enough to choose cables consistently? I have heard the argument that everyone's ears are different, but that doesn't hold water. I would like to see anyone's ears reliably prove that cables make an audible difference and I have not seen it.

Because you haven't "seen" it, does not make it untrue.

Yes, everyone's ears are different. As is everyone's training on what to do with what they hear. The differences are real, sometimes profound, and substantial. The Military recognizes and uses it to tactical advantage where instrumentation alone does not cut the mustard. The audio industry recognizes and uses this to their advantage. The music industry recognizes this and uses it to their advantage.

Hey, why is everybody so intent on "proving" to anybody else whether or not they can hear differences in cables or not? Just go listen for yourself and make up your own mind! If you hear differences, fine, if you don't, fine.

If you want to stop exploring the world around you and click the padlock shut for yourself, that is your prerogative.

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif Sales pitch. I've supervised recording and mixing at dozens of studios. I'm telling you something I know here from first hand experience. Sound studios do not use high end cabling. They buy spindles of the same sort of cabling that Radio Shack uses and put their own connectors on it. They spend money on high end microphones, mixing boards mike pres and compressors. The patch cables they use to connect the electric guitars and the wiring under the board is plain vanilla. Only audiophools spend money on expensive wires. See ya Steve

Canare does not make cable for Radio Shack. Canare and Belden are probably two of the most widely used cables in the industry. Please don't tell me this isn't true. I would be crushed.

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm talking about logical thought process and arguing on point. When I point out a fallacy in your argument, I'm not disparaging your intent. If a high end preamp is too noisy to reveal the differences between cables, the difference is totally inconsequential. Most people use equipment with volume pots and switching ability. See ya Steve

You seem to be selectively ignoring what I said. Please reread my posts. It happens to me too sometimes...Information overload.

 

[meat01]

Quote:

Hey, why is everybody so intent on "proving" to anybody else whether or not they can hear differences in cables or not? Just go listen for yourself and make up your own mind! If you hear differences, fine, if you don't, fine.

I have listened to various cables and come to the conclusion that they sound the same. I have blind tested silver, copper and even paper clips and they all sound the same. If I suggest that someone buy any cable instead of paying a lot of money for silver or ALO, I get called a troll who doesn't know what he is talking about, just because my opinion is different from the norm.

If someone recommends to others to pay $100 for ALO or Grover cables, I would just like some proof that they will sound better than any other cable. There has never been proof, so why recommend them? What is wrong with getting answers?

 

[ingwe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by meat01 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have listened to various cables and come to the conclusion that they sound the same. I have blind tested silver, copper and even paper clips and they all sound the same. If I suggest that someone buy any cable instead of paying a lot of money for silver or ALO, I get called a troll who doesn't know what he is talking about, just because my opinion is different from the norm. If someone recommends to others to pay $100 for ALO or Grover cables, I would just like some proof that they will sound better than any other cable. There has never been proof, so why recommend them? What is wrong with getting answers?

To everyone: Try recommending others listen to different stuff and to help them make up their own mind. Facilitate their experience, not your opinion.

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ingwe /img/forum/go_quote.gif Try recommending they listen to different stuff and make up their own mind. Facilitate their experience, not your opinion.

Why should he tell people to reinvent the wheel? He is offerring solid advice based on personal research to help others go beyond what he knows, not to recreate it.

See ya
Steve

 

[ingwe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif Why should he tell people to reinvent the wheel? He is offerring solid advice based on personal research to help others go beyond what he knows, not to recreate it. See ya Steve

Because ultimately we're listening to music, not opinions.

 

[peelax]

Quote:

Hey, why is everybody so intent on "proving" to anybody else whether or not they can hear differences in cables or not? Just go listen for yourself and make up your own mind! If you hear differences, fine, if you don't, fine.

The point is that most people will probably "hear" a difference between cables purely due to placebo. What I think the sceptics are saying is that despite the fact you might think you do there is in fact no difference. You can find this out with a bit of blind testing (or not).

 

[LowPhreak]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwkarth /img/forum/go_quote.gif LowPhreak, Good blurb from XLO! Thanks, k

No prob.

 

[dvw]

Quote:

Originally Posted by LowPhreak /img/forum/go_quote.gif Back to the OP's question, here's one of the better explainations I've yet seen for copper vs. silver, (from Roger Skoff of XLO Electric): http://xloelectric.com/technicalsupport.php#a1

This XLO explanation is truely inventive. "Skin effect phase shift" and inductiveness of metal?

The inductance of cable is so low they are usually not even specified in cables. Usually the inductance are too low.

In telephone application, after a couple of Km, the high frequency are attenuated more than the low frequency. So loading coil (inductance) is added to reduce this attenuation (maybe a better word is equalize).

If you pass by a telephone pole next time, you can see a long metallic box in the middle of the cable and that's the loading coil.

Skin effect has to do with current density. It does not change the phase. In any case, if you see my calculation, skin effect is not going to do anything to the characteristic of the wire unless you're using 10 AWG or larger cable. I doubt anyone will be using interconnect that thick.

Also, we need to put things in perspective. We are dealing with less than 6 feet of wire not 1000 feet. IMO, under 10 meters most variance are too small to impact sound quality.

However, I do have cable that sound different. One time I pushed my amp to close to the wall and crimp the cable at the connector. And somehow it made a difference in the soundstage. I kept the cable as a demo. Still, most people don't notice the difference until I point out what to look for.

Another point, some time ago RIAA tried to use a low frequency beat as a watermark in the music to prevent copying. Because of all the audiophile's objection, they cancell that technology. I read that one Stereophile editor actually listened to the watermarked music and can't tell the difference. It wasn't until he was informed what to look for that he can tell the difference.

The brain can do some remarkable things.

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by meat01 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have listened to various cables and come to the conclusion that they sound the same. I have blind tested silver, copper and even paper clips and they all sound the same. If I suggest that someone buy any cable instead of paying a lot of money for silver or ALO, I get called a troll who doesn't know what he is talking about, just because my opinion is different from the norm. If someone recommends to others to pay $100 for ALO or Grover cables, I would just like some proof that they will sound better than any other cable. There has never been proof, so why recommend them? What is wrong with getting answers?

You don't hear a difference between cables in your system, so it would be a waste of money for you personally to buy anything other than stock cables. On the other hand, I do hear differences between cables in some of my systems. For those systems, I build or buy better cables to the point that I'm satisfied with the overall sound. What's the problem here? Why should I have to prove to anybody that there is a difference? It's my money, my system, my ears, and my enjoyment.

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ingwe /img/forum/go_quote.gif To everyone: Try recommending others listen to different stuff and to help them make up their own mind. Facilitate their experience, not your opinion.

Wonderful suggestion!

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif Why should he tell people to reinvent the wheel? He is offerring solid advice based on personal research to help others go beyond what he knows, not to recreate it. See ya Steve

Ears are different, systems are different. Simple.