[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chu /img/forum/go_quote.gif Really though, if the result of a positive result for any reason, it would be a huge step forward. The claim of "cables don't matter" would be bunk, even if the secret was the dielectric.

well, we learned in this thread that dielectric has huge impact on sound.
So, i won't deny in reality it will also have huge impact on what you'll actually hear.

So, if a more expensive cable lets you hear more, then the secret could still be the teflon, wich is practically the best insulator. Although there is a 18.000dollar IC in this world which actually uses a vacuum as insulator and square cores, wich are to be said better sounding that round cores.

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chu /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't think I've ever seen a skeptic claim this, ever. In the sense that ones ears are not a measuring instrument.

Oh yeah i did. Some month ago in another cable thread that turned really nasty in no-time and was closed for that reason. Some stated that for them, the only evidence was a measuring instrument, not what they actually heard.

The problem with this is that a measuring instrument cannot actually measure the perception of sound. In other words, what i hear or how i hear things. So apperently between a measuring instrument and what you'll actually hear is still quite a difference.

For instance, can people hear that the capacitance is actually low, no. It sound good or better then a comparative object. Only when you start to measure, the actual things that you hear start to make sense. E.g. the really good cable has actually one of the lowest capacitance figures.

As far as i can see, the threads seem to confirm my theory; the cables that are really appreciated here turn out to actually have very low capacitance figures like Nordost, bluejeans cables etc. So apperently, people are hearing quality.

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chu /img/forum/go_quote.gif The thing is, if the variation between cables is enough that with extreemly well built cables you cannot distinguish copper from silver based solely on mechanical variance, you are essentially admitting that the metal does not matter. Picking the cables used in the test would be done explicitly to elimiate such variance as different insulator material.

I have already posted in this thread that I can clearly hear a difference between two identically constructed cables, with the only difference being one uses silver as the conductor and the other uses copper.

The key here, as you say, is "extremely" well built. It is fairly common to see one or more egregious errors committed in the name of convenience or cost containment WRT cable construction such that the audible difference between conductor metals is obfuscated by the effect of those other compromises.

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwkarth /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have already posted in this thread that I can clearly hear a difference between two identically constructed cables, with the only difference being one uses silver as the conductor and the other uses copper.

Did you make your own cables with dielectric or did you buy two different cables of the same brand. You can only be absolutely sure if the dielectric is exactly the same.

I believe ya, it's the same thing i hear. Also between a cheap and a more expensive cable. So a cheaper copper cable sounds worse then a more expensive copper cable. Same thing with silver cores. Maybe the teflon versus poly insulator is the difference in copper cables and silver cables in a higher priced range.

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tourmaline /img/forum/go_quote.gif Did you make your own cables with dielectric or did you buy two different cables of the same brand. You can only be absolutely sure if the dielectric is exactly the same. I believe ya, it's the same thing i hear. Also between a cheap and a more expensive cable. So a cheaper copper cable sounds worse then a more expensive copper cable. Same thing with silver cores. Maybe the teflon versus poly insulator is the difference in copper cables and silver cables in a higher priced range.

Ken from ALO built them identically as an experiment in his quest for the ultimate sound. I was fortunate enough to be able to participate and observe for myself, the differences between conductor materials, insulators, geometries, etc. Teflon, BTW, is not a good insulator for audio. I've heard that difference too.

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwkarth /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have already posted in this thread that I can clearly hear a difference between two identically constructed cables, with the only difference being one uses silver as the conductor and the other uses copper. The key here, as you say, is "extremely" well built. It is fairly common to see one or more egregious errors committed in the name of convenience or cost containment WRT cable construction such that the audible difference between conductor metals is obfuscated by the effect of those other compromises.

Now you know why high end cables are so expensive, no compromises in build.

best conductor, best insulation material and best plugs. This alltogether results in a very low degradation of the signal and doesn't interfere with how the amp should work.

We learned in this thread that if these figures aren't low, it interferes with the sound and how good actually the amp will work!

So apperently the quality of the cable is essential but also the conjuction between the amp and the cable; e.g. does the cable actually do the amp work at it's best.

 

[peelax]

Quote:

I can tell you I have observed first hand statistically significant repeatable audible differences in cables.

You should really put these results up on this forum, I'm sure a lot of users would be interested, me included!

Quote:

well, we learned in this thread that dielectric has huge impact on sound.

I think that is a bit of a strong statement!

 

[sugarinthegourd]

I can't seem to stay away!

Quote:

I have already posted in this thread that I can clearly hear a difference between two identically constructed cables, with the only difference being one uses silver as the conductor and the other uses copper.

When you say "identically contructed" be aware that silver has lower resistance than copper, so if the conductors have the exact same diameter, the silver wire will have slightly lower resistance, which may have some effect somewhere. What I am saying is that the ONLY difference between silver and copper is their resistance, and if you use a correspondingly larger (very small difference*) copper wire it will perform identically to silver in every way.

* Based on 1.68 x 10^-8 ohm/meter for copper and 1.59 x 10^-8 ohm/meter for silver, ratio of cross-sectional area should be 1.05660377 for copper:silver. So for a silver conductor of diameter 1, the diameter of the copper conductor with identical resistance would be 1.02791234 (approx 3% thicker).

 

[sugarinthegourd]

Quote:

So a cheaper copper cable sounds worse then a more expensive copper cable.

This sums the entire discussion up. Doesn't matter what's inside the two -- It's all about price tag.

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tourmaline /img/forum/go_quote.gif Now you know why high end cables are so expensive, no compromises in build. best conductor, best insulation material and best plugs. This altogether results in a very low degradation of the signal and doesn't interfere with how the amp should work. We learned in this thread that if these figures aren't low, it interferes with the sound and how good actually the amp will work! So apperently the quality of the cable is essential but also the conjuction between the amp and the cable; e.g. does the cable actually do the amp work at it's best.

To the best of my knowledge, some high end cables are so expensive because the manufacturer is trying to bilk the public.

Some cables are worthy of their price because they represent not only the finest materials, but also thousands of hours of research and experimentation along with the most meticulous care and time being expended to build them properly as well.

Along with the two extremes, there is everything in between.

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarinthegourd /img/forum/go_quote.gif I can't seem to stay away! When you say "identically contructed" be aware that silver has lower resistance than copper, so if the conductors have the exact same diameter, the silver wire will have slightly lower resistance, which may have some effect somewhere. What I am saying is that the ONLY difference between silver and copper is their resistance, and if you use a correspondingly larger (very small difference*) copper wire it will perform identically to silver in every way. * Based on 1.68 x 10^-8 ohm/meter for copper and 1.59 x 10^-8 ohm/meter for silver, ratio of cross-sectional area should be 1.05660377 for copper:silver. So for a silver conductor of diameter 1, the diameter of the copper conductor with identical resistance would be 1.02791234 (approx 3% thicker).

In our particular experiment cross sectional area was the same, but experiments were also done with differing gauges of the same conductor. I could not, in a statistically significant manner, distinguish any difference in sound between different gauges (24ga to 18ga) used in line level interconnect wire. The currents and wire lengths were insignificant. I would expect the sound to deteriorate if cross sectional diameters were to exceed that of an 18ga. wire because of skin effect problems... I conjecture that this should only be apparent at considerable lengths of cable.

 

[sugarinthegourd]

Skin effect is not an issue at audio frequencies. If you are concerned about it, you should be using Litz wire!

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarinthegourd /img/forum/go_quote.gif This sums the entire discussion up. Doesn't matter what's inside the two -- It's all about price tag.

only for you, my ears tell me the story.

ever heard of occ and ofocc copper, the latter being even more pure and having those large single crystal structure inside the core. It means that NOT two coppercables have to be generally the same.

Professor ohno, wich has the patent on that single crystal structure measured significant improvements in frequency responce using his technique compared to normal copper. Read, less high frequncy loss and detail in high frequncies. Do you think he gets a patent on this if it is nothing but air?!

So, most more expensive copper cables use this structure and sound different form normal copper cables.

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwkarth /img/forum/go_quote.gif To the best of my knowledge, some high end cables are so expensive because the manufacturer is trying to bilk the public. Some cables are worthy of their price because they represent not only the finest materials, but also thousands of hours of research and experimentation along with the most meticulous care and time being expended to build them properly as well. Along with the two extremes, there is everything in between.

I know my cable is hard to manufacture and uses the best available.

Remember that i didn't pay the premium; bought second hand raising the bang for the buck factor. For retail, you would never get a cable performing at this scale.

 

[Febs]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tourmaline /img/forum/go_quote.gif Oh yeah i did. Some month ago in another cable thread that turned really nasty in no-time and was closed for that reason. Some stated that for them, the only evidence was a measuring instrument, not what they actually heard.

Link please.