[peelax]

Well I think we will have to agree to disagree. While I do appreciate the work that goes into some of these cables I just cannot believe that a human is able to detect differences that state of the art machines cannot, or that in this case DBT is not appropriate or reliable (this is something that every dodgy "science" claims).

[I do not wish to offend anyone with the following statement it is my honest belief and I am not saying it always applies.]

I think there is a definite line that should always be drawn between perception and reality. Reality is solid and explainable by science, while perception - although as solid for each individual is not. While a person may experience better sound through their expensive cables in reality I do not believe anything is changed. I do not even think you have to believe that the cables make a difference to perceive the improved sound. I personally have tested pieces equipment and thought there to be a massive difference only to conclude through blind testing that there is not. Anyone who has taken mind altering substances will know how fragile our perception can be, so we must rely on proper scientific processes, which I still have not seen for expensive cables. I believe that due to the lack of proper experimental evidence any reasonable person must conclude that a cable of decent measurements is enough.

P.S. Theories are all well and good, but unless they are backed up by _objective_ evidence they aren't worth much.

 

[Chu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tourmaline /img/forum/go_quote.gif So, in other words, is the effect caused by the core or by the choice of the insulator.

The thing is, if the variation between cables is enough that with extreemly well built cables you cannot distinguish copper from silver based solely on mechanical variance, you are essentially admitting that the metal does not matter. Picking the cables used in the test would be done explicitly to elimiate such variance as different insulator material.

 

[dura]

Quote:

Man, I wish I could remember the title of that paper/book (a white paper that had been bound and published as a book) that I read a couple years ago.

Don't know, but i seem to remember that the depth of penetration of an electronal signal in a conductor depends on the amplitude of the signal.
With equal soundpressure, a lower freq signal penetrates deeper in a conductor then a high freq signal.
Since the surface of silver is smoother then copper, silver is potentially the better conductor for higher frequencies.
Silverplated copper is bad if this way of reasoning is valid; at some freqeuncy the border between silver and copper is crossed and the resistance of the conductor chances.

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chu /img/forum/go_quote.gif The thing is, if the variation between cables is enough that with extreemly well built cables you cannot distinguish copper from silver based solely on mechanical variance, you are essentially admitting that the metal does not matter. Picking the cables used in the test would be done explicitly to elimiate such variance as different insulator material.

I don't, i just wana make certain the insulator would not be a factor in the equasion. I never state that copper is the same as silver, that is NOT what i hear on my system.

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by peelax /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well I think we will have to agree to disagree. While I do appreciate the work that goes into some of these cables I just cannot believe that a human is able to detect differences that state of the art machines cannot, or that in this case DBT is not appropriate or reliable (this is something that every dodgy "science" claims). [I do not wish to offend anyone with the following statement it is my honest belief and I am not saying it always applies.] I think there is a definite line that should always be drawn between perception and reality. Reality is solid and explainable by science, while perception - although as solid for each individual is not. While a person may experience better sound through their expensive cables in reality I do not believe anything is changed. I do not even think you have to believe that the cables make a difference to perceive the improved sound. I personally have tested pieces equipment and thought there to be a massive difference only to conclude through blind testing that there is not. Anyone who has taken mind altering substances will know how fragile our perception can be, so we must rely on proper scientific processes, which I still have not seen for expensive cables. I believe that due to the lack of proper experimental evidence any reasonable person must conclude that a cable of decent measurements is enough. P.S. Theories are all well and good, but unless they are backed up by _objective_ evidence they aren't worth much.

What do you do with the people that actually DID pick all three cables right?! In the double blind test?

I have never seen any propper dbt. No measuring of hearing of the particpants ( to make sure everyone can hear right).

Most of the time the cables are visable.

Switching boards have huge impact on sound etc, etc , etc.



What is reallity? Science has made corrections on old theories every year!

The best sentence you wrote here is "i cannot believe". period. You can believe what you want, i know what i hear on my system.

No hard feelings, that's why there is priceranges in cables, buy the one with the right price for you. Or the one that gives according to you the best sound for the best price.

For both camps, there's something for everybody.

I won't deny there are people that buy expensive stuff because it is expensive to brag to other people. I am not one of those. Sound is most important for me and looks are just 10th grade. Sound is first grade.

 

[sugarinthegourd]

Quote:

I think there is a definite line that should always be drawn between perception and reality. Reality is solid and explainable by science, while perception - although as solid for each individual is not.

Speaking of perception vs. reality, I posted a couple fun examples here:

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=260188

 

[peelax]

Quote:

What do you do with the people that actually DID pick all tree right cables?! In the double blind test?

I believe that was through chance as overall there was no significant trend.

If I wrote a paper based on that kind of evidence I would be laughed out

Quote:

The best sentence you wrote here is "i cannot believe". period. You can believe what you want, i know what i hear on my system.

I cannot believe cables make a difference based on the evidence, I have seen DBTs showing no difference. I admit these aren't the most exhaustive tests, but that is what there is to go on at the moment.

Also conventional wisdom says there should be no difference, cable companies and audiophiles say there is a difference, I would like some decent evidence before I believe the minority opinion.

Quote:

No hard feelings

You too, I really do hope they do find something concrete I would love to be able to justify expensive cables to my girlfriend

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by peelax /img/forum/go_quote.gif You too, I really do hope they do find something concrete I would love to be able to justify expensive cables to my girlfriend

If any, you have to justify the price for yourself. Do you hear a difference or not. Your girfriend doesn't have anything to do with it! I never didn't hear anything. I always heard that a new IC was either worse or better, i never came across cables that sounded exactly the same! Not even with the same brand!

This is by my extensive testing with cables, shielding and modding amps. So, i have enough experience.

I've done my bit also with home made ic's and other cables. They never reached the quality of the ones i currently use. Some came very close, but never quite reached the same level.

Are your own ears NOT evidence enough?! These are the instruments, together with your mind that actually translates soundwaves into sound. Not a measuring instrument or cable.

If i would find a 15 dollar cable that would sound the same as my high end cable, i immediatly would sell the expensive cable, but thus far(25 years) i've never came across such a cheap wonder cable, sorry to dissapoint you.

IF i could sell my high end cables, i would have plenty of money to invest in actual music.

 

[Chu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tourmaline /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't, i just wana make certain the insulator would not be a factor in the equasion. I never state that copper is the same as silver, that is NOT what i hear on my system.

Really though, if the result of a positive result for any reason, it would be a huge step forward. The claim of "cables don't matter" would be bunk, even if the secret was the dielectric.

 

[Chu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tourmaline /img/forum/go_quote.gif Are your own ears NOT evidence enough?! These are the instruments, together with your mind that actually translates soundwaves into sound. Not a measuring instrument or cable.

I really hate this line of reasoning, because in a properly designed expirement your ears are still the tool being used to measure.

 

[peelax]

Quote:

Your girfriend doesn't have anything to do with it!

Believe me she has a lot to do with it!

Quote:

Are your own ears NOT evidence enough?! These are the instruments, together with your mind that actually translates soundwaves into sound. Not a measuring instrument or cable.

I need to know I am not fooling myself. I cannot justify them as jewellery with my limited budget, I have other things to buy first like a DAC1. Of course with unlimited budget I wouldn't care

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by peelax /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well I think we will have to agree to disagree. While I do appreciate the work that goes into some of these cables I just cannot believe that a human is able to detect differences that state of the art machines cannot, or that in this case DBT is not appropriate or reliable (this is something that every dodgy "science" claims). [I do not wish to offend anyone with the following statement it is my honest belief and I am not saying it always applies.] I think there is a definite line that should always be drawn between perception and reality. Reality is solid and explainable by science, while perception - although as solid for each individual is not. While a person may experience better sound through their expensive cables in reality I do not believe anything is changed. I do not even think you have to believe that the cables make a difference to perceive the improved sound. I personally have tested pieces equipment and thought there to be a massive difference only to conclude through blind testing that there is not. Anyone who has taken mind altering substances will know how fragile our perception can be, so we must rely on proper scientific processes, which I still have not seen for expensive cables. I believe that due to the lack of proper experimental evidence any reasonable person must conclude that a cable of decent measurements is enough. P.S. Theories are all well and good, but unless they are backed up by _objective_ evidence they aren't worth much.

I appreciate your position here peelax. The only thought I would like to add is perhaps a minor refinement of your definition of reality. There are many observable phenomena in our universe that are not yet fully comprehended by science. The difference between reality and fantasy is repeatable observation. Whether or not we fully understand how to measure and quantify something that is repeatedly observable make it no less real.

The key is statistically significant repeatability. I can tell you I have observed first hand statistically significant repeatable audible differences in cables. I cannot, to my satisfaction, fully explain or measure what I can observe. As I get older, it may become more and more difficult for me to hear differences, so I will be happy with less and less!

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chu /img/forum/go_quote.gif I really hate this line of reasoning, because in a properly designed expirement your ears are still the tool being used to measure.

An experiment is not a measuring instrument. For some sceptics a measuring instrument is the only tool, not their ears, yet it is the only tool that let them hear sound/music.

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by peelax /img/forum/go_quote.gif Believe me she has a lot to do with it! I need to know I am not fooling myself. I cannot justify them as jewellery with my limited budget, I have other things to buy first like a DAC1. Of course with unlimited budget I wouldn't care

Don't think so, she only determins how much you may spend on a certain cable, it is however NOT a measure of quality!

No matter how sweet or good looking your girlfriend is.

 

[Chu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tourmaline /img/forum/go_quote.gif An experiment is not a measuring instrument. For some sceptics a measuring instrument is the only tool, not their ears, yet it is the only tool that let them hear sound/music.

I don't think I've ever seen a skeptic claim this, ever. In the sense that ones ears are not a measuring instrument.