[kwkarth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarinthegourd /img/forum/go_quote.gif Just found joy I'm as happy as a baby boy, baby boy With another brand new choo-choo toy When I met my sweet Lorraine

Oh yeah, now you're talkin'
You take me right back to the track, Jack!

Re the K.C. Trio, nobody can sing like Nat did, but there are many great renditions of both of those songs.
The renditions of Strighten Up that I like are:

• Nat, of course
• Oscar Peterson
• John Pizzarelli
• Acoustix
• Arthur Blythe
• Dianne Reeves
• Bob James Trio
• Nnenna Freelon & Take 6

There are actually other renditions but those are my favorites.

 

[rsaavedra]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwkarth /img/forum/go_quote.gif These articles are about speaker cables , not line level interconnects. I agree, many things that are important factors with interconnects are insignificant with speaker cables. Our thread is about line level interconnects as far as I know. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

Actually I thought it was about cables in general. That's why I mentioned my comparison between the Zu and an aftermarket headphone cables, they carry signals much more powerful than live level.

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsaavedra /img/forum/go_quote.gif Actually I thought it was about cables in general. That's why I mentioned my comparison between the Zu and an aftermarket headphone cables, they carry signals much more powerful than live level.

Look at the title of the article and the numerous uses of the word "speaker."

After market headphone cables are another kettle of fish too. Sort of right in between line level and speaker level.

 

[germanium]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwkarth /img/forum/go_quote.gif My personal opinion about DBT is that all DBT's that I have ever seen documented, were otherwise so poorly designed that the DBT apparatus itself presented enough deleterious affect on the overall sound of the system as to obfuscate any otherwise obvious differences between cables being tested.

I whole heartedly agree.

As you can see I have outlined what I've seen & heard that has made a difference in the cable. Yes there are real differences that are hidden by DBT equipment. That happens when you get multiple layers of amps switches & cables. Amps can sometimes be grainy enough sounding the these switches to obliterate any of the subtleties that we listen to when relaxing to good music. I had an amp that I had modified that had excellent sound but due to the switch in an audio store you couldn't tell the difference but could easily hear it at home. The amps in the swich board were very grainy. Have you ever seen a stereo shop hook there highend amps, speakers or sources up to these switches. I have never seen them do that on highend equipment.$1000-1500 seems to be the limit. Above that they aren't hooked to these comparitor switches.

 

[Chu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by germanium /img/forum/go_quote.gif I whole heartedly agree. As you can see I have outlined what I've seen & heard that has made a difference in the cable. Yes there are real differences that are hidden by DBT equipment. That happens when you get multiple layers of amps switches & cables. Amps can sometimes be grainy enough sounding the these switches to obliterate any of the subtleties that we listen to when relaxing to good music. I had an amp that I had modified that had excellent sound but due to the switch in an audio store you couldn't tell the difference but could easily hear it at home. The amps in the swich board were very grainy. Have you ever seen a stereo shop hook there highend amps, speakers or sources up to these switches. I have never seen them do that on highend equipment.$1000-1500 seems to be the limit. Above that they aren't hooked to these comparitor switches.

There is a very easy solution to this since we are dealing with headphones.

Build 3 identical systems. Two with the same ICs, the third using a different one. Obfuscate the cables in each so the subject cannot see them. The test is to find the different ones. The initial setup would probably be somewhere around $1-$1.5K x 3 excluding the cost of the cables, and reclaiming 60-80% back after the test by selling the gear.

Completely impractical for speaker setups, if only for sheer cost never mind the logistics, however for a headphone system this would work.

Similarly is passing around a set of three cables, two the same and one different, and see what happens, a la the copper/silver/cheapo IC test that was done a while back. I don't know if the cables could be sufficiently obfuscated though since a lot of boutique cables use easily identifiable terminators, however it would make an interesting copper vs. silver test.

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarinthegourd /img/forum/go_quote.gif Must be 6pf per foot not per meter. Makes a difference.

it was per foot, you're right. So, for a meter IC you'll get about 20pf. For worse cables it can 600% worse, this was the difference between the best measuring cable(nordost) and the worst measuring cable. So, the worst measuring cable have huge impact on capacitance, wich in return has immediate impact on the sound!

it is exactly what i am hearing, nordost is very clean and analytical; it let's you hear what a component does in your system. others are better for masking imperfections in a system. Your choice of cable.

Germanium, did you measure one of their reference series of cables?! Sine there is quite a difference between the cheapest and the top of the cables in sound.

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif You and I are probably the only ones here that know who the KC Trio were. See ya Steve

Pappa was a rolling stone
where ever he laid his hat was his home..........

 

[tourmaline]

meanwhile TS still doesn't know why copper cable sounds warmer then silver cable or silverplated copper.

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chu /img/forum/go_quote.gif There is a very easy solution to this since we are dealing with headphones. Build 3 identical systems. Two with the same ICs, the third using a different one. Obfuscate the cables in each so the subject cannot see them. The test is to find the different ones. The initial setup would probably be somewhere around $1-$1.5K x 3 excluding the cost of the cables, and reclaiming 60-80% back after the test by selling the gear. Completely impractical for speaker setups, if only for sheer cost never mind the logistics, however for a headphone system this would work. Similarly is passing around a set of three cables, two the same and one different, and see what happens, a la the copper/silver/cheapo IC test that was done a while back. I don't know if the cables could be sufficiently obfuscated though since a lot of boutique cables use easily identifiable terminators, however it would make an interesting copper vs. silver test.

I think I remember participating in a test that was conducted in this manner, a number of years ago. I can't dig up any more specifics out of my brain right now, but I think it's a great idea.

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tourmaline /img/forum/go_quote.gif meanwhile TS still doesn't know why copper cable sounds warmer then silver cable or silverplated copper.

Man, I wish I could remember the title of that paper/book (a white paper that had been bound and published as a book) that I read a couple years ago. As I vaguely recall, it offered a plausible explanation of why copper and silver sound different as conductors in the audio band. It had to do with the depth of skin effect in the two metals if I'm remembering correctly. I will continue to pursue this, and if and when I can find the info, I will post it. (I borrowed that work from somebody, so I have to seek them out and see if I can borrow the book again.)

 

[peelax]

Quote:

Well, I haven't, but maybe that's just lack of experience. What you're saying is at least plausible, though. The dielectric certainly can help reduce capacitance, induction and crosstalk. Whether audibly, I dunno (skeptical) but measureably, sure! But I don't believe that the dialectrics in inexpensive interconnects are themselves charged with capacitance by audio signals, or that the dielectric somehow "adapts" to the signal in any way. And now we have more random & irrelevant cutting & pasting. I'm done here. Bottom line is, I think fancy cables can look a lot better than cheap ones, and that can produce some pleasure in the listener. So if buyers are happy, that's great! But AFAIK neither science nor double-blind testing supports an audible difference between decently-constructed cables of adequate specification. My last word on this thread.

Well said. The question is how much money can you spend on a cable before there is 0% increase in performance, I would say not much, but then just to be 100% sure? - http://www.bluejeanscable.com/

Of course everyone here loves music, the idea that you might be missing something is suggested by cable companies, its a hard thing to ignore.

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by peelax /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well said. The question is how much money can you spend on a cable before there is 0% increase in performance, I would say not much, but then just to be 100% sure? - http://www.bluejeanscable.com/ Of course everyone here loves music, the idea that you might be missing something is suggested by cable companies, its a hard thing to ignore.

I heard almost the complete line of a certain brand and i can tell you for sure there is a significant difference between the cheapest and the top of the line cable in sound! not only the sound, but also in detail, i can hear much more then with the cheaper cables on a recording. Also the sound is more rounded are more lifelike.

For me, enough a difference to buy one of the top line IC's but i bought second hand wich increases the bang for the buck ratio considderably. This way high end cables are more affordable to more people. Still quite alot of money but still much better then any cable i've heard in that pricerange.

Remember that the "need" for a higher end cable is higher for a higher end system.

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwkarth /img/forum/go_quote.gif Man, I wish I could remember the title of that paper/book (a white paper that had been bound and published as a book) that I read a couple years ago. As I vaguely recall, it offered a plausible explanation of why copper and silver sound different as conductors in the audio band. It had to do with the depth of skin effect in the two metals if I'm remembering correctly. I will continue to pursue this, and if and when I can find the info, I will post it. (I borrowed that work from somebody, so I have to seek them out and see if I can borrow the book again.)

I i am thinking the same way; explains why silver plated copper has extended highs, less skineffect on the outer edge of the core.

Yet, will your paper satisfy the sceptics. In their ears there is no difference at all.

I found that no matter how much "evidence" you provide, it really doesn't matter.

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by peelax /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well said. The question is how much money can you spend on a cable before there is 0% increase in performance, I would say not much, but then just to be 100% sure? - http://www.bluejeanscable.com/ Of course everyone here loves music, the idea that you might be missing something is suggested by cable companies, its a hard thing to ignore.

I am sure, as some threads state, that there are better cables, but they will cost you much more!

As with anything else in life, if you want the best you gotta pay for it!

I read bluejeans is using heavy shielding. I did my own experiments with shielding and i found out that heavy shielding obscures deatil. By removing the shielding, you have a much better sound and detail.

So, yes, i think they loose some detail there.

Also they state on their site their capacitance is 12, some other high end cables measured are in the realms of 6pf.

I generally believe that the lower the capacitance is, the better the cable will sound and the easier the cable will match with amplifiers.

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chu /img/forum/go_quote.gif There is a very easy solution to this since we are dealing with headphones. Build 3 identical systems. Two with the same ICs, the third using a different one. Obfuscate the cables in each so the subject cannot see them. The test is to find the different ones. The initial setup would probably be somewhere around $1-$1.5K x 3 excluding the cost of the cables, and reclaiming 60-80% back after the test by selling the gear. Completely impractical for speaker setups, if only for sheer cost never mind the logistics, however for a headphone system this would work. Similarly is passing around a set of three cables, two the same and one different, and see what happens, a la the copper/silver/cheapo IC test that was done a while back. I don't know if the cables could be sufficiently obfuscated though since a lot of boutique cables use easily identifiable terminators, however it would make an interesting copper vs. silver test.

The problem with that method is that you'll never get 3 exactly the same cables. As we learned in this thread, insulation has huge impact on the sound and behavier of the conductor.

So, unless a manufacteror is able to make 2 cables with exactly the same specs, except for the copper and silver cores, you cannot compare the effect of those cores, since more expensive cables almost without an exception use teflon insulation and cheap cables use poly.

So, in other words, is the effect caused by the core or by the choice of the insulator.