[bigshot]

Makes no since at all. If a Sony device for example, is using these special, high tech capacitors that need 8 days of something to sound correct, why is this device shipped without that being done?

Because the no questions asked return window is 7 days.

 

[nanaholic]

Because the no questions asked return window is 7 days.

There's no such return policies in Japan. In fact most countries don't have such return policies except the USA AFAIK.

 

[nanaholic]

While breaking in a drive line was common 30 years ago, the general consensus is modern autos (with a few exceptions) are good to go right off the line. Manufacturing in the auto (motorcycle) industry has come a long way.

My friend just took delivery of a brand spanking new Subaru BRZ in Japan, Subaru still told him to burn in the engine.

Come to think of it, a BRZ would be considered an enthusiasts sports car, where these kinds of "burn in" rituals would be widely believed and trusted. A normal car buyer who bought a sedan just looking at getting between point A and B won't give a rats ass about properly running in their engine, hell most people don't even take proper care of their cars and even learn the most basic things about cars in general. You can more than draw a few parallels here.

 

[geek707]

Because the no questions asked return window is 7 days.

Interesting statement. Having dealt with the photo and video side of Sony for 20+ years or so, I really don't envy retailers on the audio side of the market. I can just see trying to get a RMA on a high-end audio component based on it not sounding correct...

 

[geek707]

My friend just took delivery of a brand spanking new Subaru BRZ in Japan, Subaru still told him to burn in the engine.

And ask that person what that involves. And take a look in Subaru forums about break-in. It's as bad as anything on Head-Fi.

 

[nanaholic]

And ask that person what that involves. And take a look in Subaru forums about break-in. It's as bad as anything on Head-Fi.

It's the usual - try to not go above 3k for the first 500 clicks etc. There's no mystery to it and don't need to look at any forums, it is still based on the age old idea of not over-stressing the engine and give time for the parts to slowly wear in. Again you'll have people who swears this is important vs another group who says it's all BS (and another group who will say no you need to do something else entirely), still doesn't come down to any solid conclusions one way or the other.

 

[Ari33]

Running a car engine in can't really be compared with the so called burn in of electronics. Engine/drivetrain Run in/Friction reduction is a proven and measurable factor on how an engine performs, incidentally, one that I have even been able to measure myself in terms of performance when I bought my first new car.

Other than A-B subjective testing electronics burn in is most probably unmeasurable regardless whether it is real or not.

 

[geek707]

so there we are, I don't claim that things change audibly or not, I don't claim anything about burn in, not even a proper definition. but I do claim that audiophiles suck at testing and suck even more at logic and deduction. and burn in is an irrelevant thing so long as it's not clearly defined objectively and demonstrated in a global way, which will probably never happens.

You make very good points.
With the right technology you can very accurately describe what something sounds like. You cannot at all accurately describe what someone is hearing. When you look at how we describe what we hear, there are very few things that are not subjective...
That said, I think car engine break-in is a very good analogy. It's not well understood, and the results are almost impossible to quantify.
The discussions are fun though.

 

[Ari33]

You make very good points.
With the right technology you can very accurately describe what something sounds like. You cannot at all accurately describe what someone is hearing. When you look at how we describe what we hear, there are very few things that are not subjective...
That said, I think car engine break-in is a very good analogy. It's not well understood, and the results are almost impossible to quantify.
The discussions are fun though.

I agree that the correct method for running a car engine in, is up for debate but if 'run in' is measurable in altering an engines output itself, then surely that makes the comparison with unproven 'burn in' in electronics an irrelevant one?

 

[geek707]

I agree that the correct method for running a car engine in, is up for debate but if 'run in' is measurable in altering an engines output itself, then surely that makes the comparison with unproven 'burn in' in electronics an irrelevant one?

That's kind of the problem.
First how would you measure that change in the engine? Dyno? Pull the plugs and do a compression check? (Good luck with that on a modern auto, finding the plugs is a challenge)
Assuming you do one of the above, I would not expect to see a statically meaningful change in a standard assembly line engine. Hand built, high performance engine maybe, but even then, much of a change in the first 500 miles would be a red flag to me. In Most of the break-in is to get to that first oil and filter change.
That's, I think one of the reasons, engine break-in is one of those subjects that you need Nomex to get involved with.
(Want to see flame wars, start a oil discussion...)

 

[bigshot]

I think burn in is like aging fine wine. It's like developing a patina on a bronze statue. It's a lot like planting a seed and watching it germinate.

Naw... it's placebo.

 

[Ari33]

That's kind of the problem.
First how would you measure that change in the engine? Dyno? Pull the plugs and do a compression check? (Good luck with that on a modern auto, finding the plugs is a challenge)
Assuming you do one of the above, I would not expect to see a statically meaningful change in a standard assembly line engine. Hand built, high performance engine maybe, but even then, much of a change in the first 500 miles would be a red flag to me. In Most of the break-in is to get to that first oil and filter change.
That's, I think one of the reasons, engine break-in is one of those subjects that you need Nomex to get involved with.
(Want to see flame wars, start a oil discussion...)

I am a bit of a petrolhead and with my brother being a rally driver Im also involved with motorsport in servicing and event marshalling so I have quite a lot to do with like minded people and also socially. It's widely accepted, in fact pretty much a given amongst all of us that engines/drivetrain do loosen up and performance increases on a brand new engine... especially over the first 10-15k miles. You are probably the first person that I've come across who is questioning it. Yeah, its probably more noticable in a race engine due to it's purpose but there is no reason why it shouldnt also happen to some extent with regular power units.

Many years ago 98 I think? I bought a brand new Pug 106gti having previously owned the S1 106 Rallye. The engine had allegedly been dyno run in and I'd been told it was good to drive as I liked without taking any precautions. My initial impressions were pretty disappointing... it was a bit faster than my old S1 Rallye but not THAT much faster, certainly not worth any where near the cost difference, it did handle much better though.
I timed it at 7.9 avg to 60 using a Vbox logger, only 0.25 secs quicker than my old Rallye despite having a bigger engine and an alleged 20 extra ponnies (Yeah, right!! :/...) pretty gutted! More like only an extra 5bhp and the increased torque was the only increase at that point.
Twelve months and 6k miles on and it started loosening up a bit and I'm thinking yeah... 'Ok, still not exactly earth shattering but it's definately getting better....' then two years in and at 13.5k miles it was really starting to go so MUCH better that I Vboxed it again and was now averaging 7.5 to 60... it felt even better than that but I suppose almost half a second is quite a substantial increase and one that equated to around 15 bhp in that particular car.
It wouldn't solely be down to just the engine... but the whole drivetrain loosening up as all the bearings and frictional parts bedded in. I also have no doubts whatsoever that a dyno would have shown a similar improvement had I been bothered to put it on the rolling road at new then again after two years. I no longer regretted buying it and I actually bought two others over the years since then.

So I 100% do believe in mechanical run in and also accept that there COULD be a possibility of speaker diaphragms in headphones changing as they loosen up... maybe?
With electrical burn in I am a lot more sceptical... someone prove it and I'd be happy to alter my opinion though.

 

[krismusic]

I suggest the car analogy should be like mentioning Nazis on the rest of the internet. Once someone mentions it, game over. It is such a spurious analogy. Means nothing. IMHO.

 

[Redcarmoose]

Manufacturing BS? Why say that? It’s just a simple form of audiophile physics which the manufacturers are going along with.

It’s maybe not cost effective to burn the capacitors in prior to the sale. Normally if I remember right a company like VPI runs their new turntables on a shelf for 24 hours. Each company is different. The Sony player becomes dramatically different even after 25 hours. So at times these companies are recommending the full burn-in recommendation.

Why be upset with the company, as they made world-class great sounding equipment. We are lucky have it offered, it burn-in or not.

 

[Redcarmoose]

I suggest the car analogy should be like mentioning Nazis on the rest of the internet. Once someone mentions it, game over. It is such a spurious analogy. Means nothing. IMHO.

Well, with turntables, like VPI, this 24 hour “wear-in” is looked at like car “burn-in”. They also state that it’s quality control, so they want to make sure the turntable functions for 24 hours as well as the slight mechanical change of bearings wearing into and smoothing out mechanically into their new home. But cars actually get better gas mileage after the first tank of gas, as it’s simply more work to push the car along with all the internal mechanical friction.

Though car “run-in” has changed over the years. In the 1970s many took fast cars from the dealer and went onto the freeway to 100mph only to have the engine blow-up. Now engineering has made tolerances so slightly fit, that you could take a 2017 car out and go full speed on the freeway with no issues.