[Bassheadd]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Young Spade /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yea I see either iPod Touch's or iPhone 3GSs. Meh people around here have no idea what high quality sound is though. Small country town in Florida :/

Ya no kidding! On the bus yesterday some dude was decked out with an iphone and touch with of course the amazing apple earbuds. He asked what MP3 player I had cause he knew it wasnt uhh an ipod? and I told him. Right away he goes "Oh not as good as ipods" I laughed haha. I just told him Apple sound quality is sub par and he should get a real pair of earbuds. Whatever dude...you're so brainwashed in all the ipod hype you dont even know what REAL SQ is.

 

[Young Spade]

Uh huh. I can't wait for the day I hear someone brag about his pair of Bose headphones while I'm carrying my rig with me... or even without. It's amazing how much someone can change by just visiting this site and reading a few topics every day.

I'm so glad I found Head-Fi.

 

[Ojsinnerz]

Hahahahahaha.

Thanks for the good laugh.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Young Spade /img/forum/go_quote.gif Uh huh. I can't wait for the day I hear someone brag about his pair of Bose headphones while I'm carrying my rig with me...

Well, that actually happened to me....

 

[shigzeo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bassheadd /img/forum/go_quote.gif Ya no kidding! On the bus yesterday some dude was decked out with an iphone and touch with of course the amazing apple earbuds. He asked what MP3 player I had cause he knew it wasnt uhh an ipod? and I told him. Right away he goes "Oh not as good as ipods" I laughed haha. I just told him Apple sound quality is sub par and he should get a real pair of earbuds. Whatever dude...you're so brainwashed in all the ipod hype you dont even know what REAL SQ is.

You ever take into account the fact that Apple never, ever say anything about SQ? No one is brainwashing anyone - not from Apple's camp. Imagine that the other way, people who dismiss Apple iPods because they are from Apple and popular, are brainwashed - that part is true.

Most DAP's use the same or very similar hardware, operate within very similar voltage tolerances, and other than a few SW tweaks, are hardly different. There are different sound flavours, but if you think the iPod is outclassed by any mass market player, the brainwashing has really, really gone in strong.

The fact is that Apple got lucky, they have a popular player. They never brag about SQ, never brainwash anyone. People assume that popularity means something and that mass rule is wrong, but that makes no sense at all. It goes for every single mass produced or micro produced object from any industry.

iPods are no worse than Cowons and in some respects visa versa. The problem is that brain bias says them must, especially when you come to a place which says it is cool to bash iPods, etc.. Even if it was proved that your favourite non-iPod was in fact inferior to the iPod, you wouldn't believe it; if it was proved to be inferior to another non-iPod, I can see that market segment believing it.

Brainwash, friend, goes two ways.

 

[stingx]

^
Very well stated.

 

[rawrster]

hah i just knew you would somehow mention cowon's the second you mentioned apple not bragging about SQ

 

[brotherlen]

I think for the larger groups of people concerned, they don't value sound quality in the same way people on the forum tend to. If that were the case, mp3 below 320kbs as a format would be extinct. You could buy everything in ALAC and FLAC through the itunes store. Yeah, so even if they had players that focused on SQ, they are still trying to polish a turd.

 

[shigzeo]

It isn't about focusing on SQ, it's about marketing SQ. That has happened time and time again, mostly by: Sony, Creative and Cowon. The lattter and the middle both have excellent spec (in chip), but cannot perform when driving headphones. Cowon have a good EQ system and BBE, but overall, underperform. Sony on the other hand hiss, but have very good performance when driving loads.

I came from Cowon and Sony to iPod. I still use the Sonys but won't touch Cowon without an amp for the simple reason that their players, with very little stereo separation and a goodly amount of bass roll off, give me headaches.

iPod used to have bass roll off and when it did, that was all people could talk about. Then, when Apple fixed that, people brought up other things, not because those things mattered (indeed, they are inherent in almost every player out there), because it is Apple.

Participating in this forum means only that we have an admitted interest in audio - it does not mean we know any better or have a better ear. It also means that we are more susceptible to the marketing claims of 'audiophile' companies because we come here expecting more. And to expect more, we have to compare ourselves to another market: the group who doesn't expect more.

SQ is vastly not about actual quality, but about marketing, about prejudice, and about placebo.

 

[roebeet]

Quote:

Originally Posted by shigzeo /img/forum/go_quote.gif You ever take into account the fact that Apple never, ever say anything about SQ? No one is brainwashing anyone - not from Apple's camp. Imagine that the other way, people who dismiss Apple iPods because they are from Apple and popular, are brainwashed - that part is true. Most DAP's use the same or very similar hardware, operate within very similar voltage tolerances, and other than a few SW tweaks, are hardly different. There are different sound flavours, but if you think the iPod is outclassed by any mass market player, the brainwashing has really, really gone in strong. The fact is that Apple got lucky, they have a popular player. They never brag about SQ, never brainwash anyone. People assume that popularity means something and that mass rule is wrong, but that makes no sense at all. It goes for every single mass produced or micro produced object from any industry. iPods are no worse than Cowons and in some respects visa versa. The problem is that brain bias says them must, especially when you come to a place which says it is cool to bash iPods, etc.. Even if it was proved that your favourite non-iPod was in fact inferior to the iPod, you wouldn't believe it; if it was proved to be inferior to another non-iPod, I can see that market segment believing it. Brainwash, friend, goes two ways.

You have some good points, but I don't agree with you completely.

iPod SQ is very good if it's a certain device, you ditch the earbuds and (sometimes) use the LOD. So, the whole "it's crap" comment is simply not true. Most of us here already know that. I believe that the majority of us here are objective and will take a device at face value, regardless of who designed it.

But, Apple is a mass-marketing juggernaut - their fanboys believe that they are "thinking different" when in fact they are just feeding a large corporation who really only care about profits. Perfect example: there is a known issue with the 5G iPod's where, shortly after the warranty expired, the audio starts cutting out due to a chip coming loose on the circuit board. Instead of advertising this problem, Apple has been very closed mouth and has taken the attitude of "let them come to us and we might replace it". They are no different than any other company. (btw, the reason I know this is because I was a 5G owner and eventually found the huge Apple forum on this issue).

The other problem with Apple, imo, is their refusal to embrace any open-source technology - and MS is guilty of the same. AFAIC, it's my music and I should be able to use whatever codec I want. Not including OGG Vorbis or FLAC support on these devices is just corporate bullying and I don't like it. In this area, I have a lot more respect for companies like Cowon and Sandisk who at least listen to their customers (sometimes).

 

[Young Spade]

Very good point roebeet. Sometimes I also wonder why I'm limited to using MP3 and ALAC on the device when about every other player out there lets me use FLAC and whatnot.
Honestly I only used iPods for this long because of the UI of iTunes (never bought music from there but I liked playlists and stuff) and the great UI (IMO). Now I've sold both of my iPods in place for a s:flo2 because I'm going to focus more on getting the best SQ out of my portable rig.

iPods are good players but IMO they could be better.

 

[shigzeo]

Very good points - I agree wholeheartedly. Apple are as much a corporate company as are Cowon, as are Microsoft, as are Meizu. There isn't a mass market company who truly care about SQ; they all care about image. Cowon in Korea only advertise about image by hiring sexy models. iRiver gave up and do the same but with less sexy models. Microsoft and Apple do it with their devices.

Cowon using OGG Vorbis and FLAC has nothing to do with customers - not a single Korean I know has ever used FLAC - they use MP3 because no one buys CD's here - no one. FLAC and OGG vorbis are used because they cost NOTHING for the company. It has nothing to do with customer choice, it is just another notch for their belts.

If they want to say they choose the customer, they should send their hardware spec to Rockbox team and await true customer choice. Trust me, no company is in it for the customer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by roebeet /img/forum/go_quote.gif You have some good points, but I don't agree with you completely. iPod SQ is very good if it's a certain device, you ditch the earbuds and (somtimes) use the LOD. So, the whole "it's crap" comment is simply not true. Most of us here already know that. I believe that the majority of us are objective and will take a device at face value, regardless of who designed it. But, Apple is a mass-marketing juggernaut - their fanboys believe that they are "thinking different" when in fact they are just feeding a large corporation who really only care about profits. Perfect example: there is a known issue with the 5G iPod's where, shortly after the warranty expired, the audio starts cutting out due to a chip coming loose on the circuit board. Instead of advertising this problem, Apple has been very closed mouth and has taken the attitude of "let them come to us and we might replace it". They are no different than any other company. (btw, the reason I know this is because I was a 5G owner and eventually found the huge Apple forum on this issue). The other problem with Apple, imo, is their refusal to embrace any open-source technology - and MS is guilty of the same. AFAIC, it's my music and I should be able to use whatever codec I want. Not including OGG Vorbis or FLAC support on these devices is just corporate bullying and I don't like it. In this area, I have a lot more respect to companies like Cowon and Sandisk who at least listen to their customers (sometimes).

 

[ShootingStars]

lol everyday i see either one of these:

ipod nano with earphones wrapped so tight you can heat the crying
ipod touch with same case as ^
some sansa clips with bad earbuds
PHILIP and SAMSUNG players

never saw anyone with an amp. before... haha maybe 1 day

 

[Young Spade]

Yea I've never seen a portable amp in person other than my own. I can't wait until the day. Maybe next year at college

People are always asking me if it's a battery charger or something. (iBasso T4 hooked to either Nano or Touch, but I sold both of those).

 

[leveller1642]

Quote:

Originally Posted by roebeet /img/forum/go_quote.gif ....................The other problem with Apple, imo, is their refusal to embrace any open-source technology - and MS is guilty of the same. AFAIC, it's my music and I should be able to use whatever codec I want. Not including OGG Vorbis or FLAC support on these devices is just corporate bullying and I don't like it. In this area, I have a lot more respect to companies like Cowon and Sandisk who at least listen to their customers (sometimes).

That works both ways as well. With the ipod having majority market share, why don't other manufacturers support AAC and gapless. I know Sony and Samsung do AAC, but if Cowan or Sansa want to be a serious competitor to Apple in the quasi-audiophile market they should be.

 

[roebeet]

Quote:

Originally Posted by leveller1642 /img/forum/go_quote.gif That works both ways as well. With the ipod having majority market share, why don't other manufacturers support AAC and gapless. I know Sony and Samsung do AAC, but if Cowan or Sansa want to be a serious competitor to Apple in the quasi-audiophile market they should be.

AAC is not free to implement. But, as a consumer, I would like to see them support it - would make a lot of business sense given that iTunes music is now DRM-free. And Cowon and Sandisk support gapless on their newer players (yes, I know MP3 has issues, but MP3 doesn't support gapless either - you have to fiddle with your implementation of MP3 to get around it).

Quote:

Originally Posted by shigzeo /img/forum/go_quote.gif Very good points - I agree wholeheartedly. Apple are as much a corporate company as are Cowon, as are Microsoft, as are Meizu. There isn't a mass market company who truly care about SQ; they all care about image. Cowon in Korea only advertise about image by hiring sexy models. iRiver gave up and do the same but with less sexy models. Microsoft and Apple do it with their devices. Cowon using OGG Vorbis and FLAC has nothing to do with customers - not a single Korean I know has ever used FLAC - they use MP3 because no one buys CD's here - no one. FLAC and OGG vorbis are used because they cost NOTHING for the company. It has nothing to do with customer choice, it is just another notch for their belts. If they want to say they choose the customer, they should send their hardware spec to Rockbox team and await true customer choice. Trust me, no company is in it for the customer.

I always wondered how Cowon advertised in Asia, given that they are mainly word-of-mouth in the States. Like you said, they are all looking at their profit margins, ultimately.

Sandisk actually gave the Rockbox developers a few E200's to play with, back when they were trying to get that player ported. Granted, it's not much. But at least Cowon / Sandisk aren't going out of their way to stop Rockbox. MS and Apple, on the other hand, encrypt their new firmware and care nothing about Rockbox. As for OGG Vorbis / FLAC costing nothing, that's exactly my point in regards to MS and Apple not offering it. Same goes for Sony, btw.

Even though I know Cowon and Sandisk are ultimately corporations who want my cash, at least they give me some flexibility with the players they offer. That's really all I want from Apple.