[JohnFerrier]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nanahachi DBT = double blind test I am with SIE in this discussion. I want the only variable to be the new component I am evaluating. I listen to my rig intensely, everyday. When I placed a new PC into my system, I put on a CD I knew like the back of my hand, sat back, and listened, after having first listened to it with my original PC. The only variable was the power cord, and the differences were not subtle.

I'm glad that people perceive obvious differences. I expect the difference to evaporate, if the listener does not know what variable changes. This may come across as offensive, but it has been my experience. And, this is conclusion of report, "Can We Hear Differences Between AC Power Cords?".


JF

 

[ServinginEcuador]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnFerrier Hi Doug, You can evaluate your own system. However, *you* can't know the variable, if any, that changes during the evaluation. JF

Thanks for clarifying that John. I agree that by telling people the exact product make and/or model they're evaluating that it CAN, and in most cases WILL, taint the results. People who don't believe in cables will often quote studies where they tell people they're going to insert some uber-expensive cable, and then really use a cheap one. All that proves is that the power of suggestion is alive and active. By removing any and all knowledge of what's under test you ensure that the power of suggestion is removed. Give the people control over the music AND the switching, and watch what happens. Don't just sit a panel in an audience and switch under your own terms and timing and expect them to be able to do much more than listen. Let them fully control the music, track, and when to switch between the two items under test. Let them say "switch", or "A", "B", or something else, but let them make as many, and as often, switches as is necessary to make an evaulation. Than and only than will you have accurate results. You don't even need to tell them what they're testing. Just have them switch back-and-forth between between two things and report what they hear.

Going back to the Equinox review, I listened for hundreds and hundreds of hours of music before making a conclusion. I invited a neutral party over to let them experience the differences, and could easily and repeatedly pick out the differences in the music. If I didn't hear a difference between the two cables, or if it was only a small difference, I would have sent the cables back and refused to review them. I report what I hear, and any negative aspects to consider when making a purchase. I sent back two amps I was sent, and won't review them until they were resolved. I'm not paid to write good reviews about products, I'm paid to write reviews about good products. There's a BIG difference between the two. I have no stake nor gain by saying anything good or bad about a product, and have never received a single push to do so from any editor over at SoundStage!. If I ever felt that they wanted me to tone something down, change something to sound better for a sponsor or advertiser, I would quit immediately and make a public announcement here stating what happened!!

 

[JohnFerrier]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ServinginEcuador Thanks for clarifying that John. I agree that by telling people the exact product make and/or model they're evaluating that it CAN, and in most cases WILL, taint the results. People who don't believe in cables will often quote studies where they tell people they're going to insert some uber-expensive cable, and then really use a cheap one. All that proves is that the power of suggestion is alive and active. By removing any and all knowledge of what's under test you ensure that the power of suggestion is removed. Give the people control over the music AND the switching, and watch what happens. Don't just sit a panel in an audience and switch under your own terms and timing and expect them to be able to do much more than listen. Let them fully control the music, track, and when to switch between the two items under test. Let them say "switch", or "A", "B", or something else, but let them make as many, and as often, switches as is necessary to make an evaulation. Than and only than will you have accurate results. You don't even need to tell them what they're testing. Just have them switch back-and-forth between between two things and report what they hear. Going back to the Equinox review, I listened for hundreds and hundreds of hours of music before making a conclusion. I invited a neutral party over to let them experience the differences, and could easily and repeatedly pick out the differences in the music. If I didn't hear a difference between the two cables, or if it was only a small difference, I would have sent the cables back and refused to review them. I report what I hear, and any negative aspects to consider when making a purchase. I sent back two amps I was sent, and won't review them until they were resolved. I'm not paid to write good reviews about products, I'm paid to write reviews about good products. There's a BIG difference between the two. I have no stake nor gain by saying anything good or bad about a product, and have never received a single push to do so from any editor over at SoundStage!. If I ever felt that they wanted me to tone something down, change something to sound better for a sponsor or advertiser, I would quit immediately and make a public announcement here stating what happened!!

Hi Doug,

I'm aware that difference seem obvious, but it seems like you (and your listener) are aware of the configuration. I don't think that if you listened 25 times, and not know which cable you were listening to, that you could pick out 17 times or more which cable was in fact being used.


JF

 

[MD1032]

Interesting. As always, the only way for me to confirm such a thing would be to actually confirm this myself at a Head-Fi meet or something. As of yet, I'm not convinced power cords make a difference at all, and don't see why they should.

My band director told us human auditory memory is actually only 3 seconds, hence why when we tune we can only hold a note perfeclty in tune for about 3 seconds before we "forget" A440 and we go out of tune. I can confirm that as a fact, as a musician. Also, when comparing amp to unamped, I found it extremely difficult, because I found that while I was switching wires I would "forget" the sound!

Now, if I listen to something for a couple weeks or a month, then switch, I will definitely notice the difference.

 

[ServinginEcuador]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnFerrier Hi Doug, I'm aware that difference seem obvious, but it seems like you (and your listener) are aware of the configuration. I don't think that if you listened 25 times, and not know which cable you were listening to, that you could pick out 17 times or more which cable was in fact being used. JF

John,

I'm sorry, but actually, if I used the Fleetwood Mac Rumours album, track #3, I could in fact pick out the Equinox-equipped Sennheisers 25/25 times. The differences were huge, and the guitar work of Lindsey Buckingham was dramatically different. If someone else blindfolded me and swapped headphones without me knowing which was which, I could easily pick out the Equionox ones without fail. Nanahachi can verify this, and if you want to setup something like this for my return to the states I will happily make it happen at a mini-meet of some kind. We had more than 25 people at the last SoCal meet, and I'm sure we could setup something with a blindfold and random selection of the Equinox vs. stock cable setup.

 

[JohnFerrier]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MD1032 Interesting. As always, the only way for me to confirm such a thing would be to actually confirm this myself at a Head-Fi meet or something. As of yet, I'm not convinced power cords make a difference at all, and don't see why they should. My band director told us human auditory memory is actually only 3 seconds, hence why when we tune we can only hold a note perfeclty in tune for about 3 seconds before we "forget" A440 and we go out of tune. I can confirm that as a fact, as a musician. Also, when comparing amp to unamped, I found it extremely difficult, because I found that while I was switching wires I would "forget" the sound! Now, if I listen to something for a couple weeks or a month, then switch, I will definitely notice the difference.

Hi,

Do you know if people with "perfect pitch" have an easier time with this?


JF

 

[nanahachi]

Not to sound like Doug's "yes man," but I'm backing him up here 100%.

I will offer this as well: When I make changes to my rig, whether they be IC, PC, isolation, component changes, and I HEAR a difference, that is proof enough for me. When I hear new details I've never heard before, or instrumentation becomes less muddled and more defined/separated, then that is proof enough for me.

Now, if this is all in my head, and is a mental/psychological construction, then fine. In my head I am hearing differences, and if I like them, then that's good enough for me.

 

[JohnFerrier]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ServinginEcuador John, I'm sorry, but actually, if I used the Fleetwood Mac Rumours album, track #3, I could in fact pick out the Equinox-equipped Sennheisers 25/25 times. The differences were huge, and the guitar work of Lindsey Buckingham was dramatically different. If someone else blindfolded me and swapped headphones without me knowing which was which, I could easily pick out the Equionox ones without fail. Nanahachi can verify this, and if you want to setup something like this for my return to the states I will happily make it happen at a mini-meet of some kind. We had more than 25 people at the last SoCal meet, and I'm sure we could setup something with a blindfold and random selection of the Equinox vs. stock cable setup.

Hi Doug,

That sounds like a very good test. Post the results, if you do it. You might be surprised (of course, I may be surprised).


JF

 

[ServinginEcuador]

John,

I may indeed be surprised by the results. I won't be surprised by my own results as I've now had the Equinox cables for 8 months. I might be surprised that others aren't able to pick-up on the differences. I feel confident that with familiar music they will be able to tell the difference. Controlling the testing circumstances will be difficult, but not impossible. We'll have to have a room setup for this in which we could blindfold the person before entering, sit them down, and give them the remote control or the ability to have them repeat certain tracks of music. We'll need one person to record the results, one to switch the headphones, and possibly one to control the music. I don't know how we could double blind this type of testing as the person switching the headphones will know what is being used. If we ensure that the person switching the headphones has ZERO interaction with the subject we can eliminate anything short of some claim that they have psychic powers that allow them to communicate telepathically with the subject.

 

[JohnFerrier]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nanahachi Not to sound like Doug's "yes man," but I'm backing him up here 100%. I will offer this as well: When I make changes to my rig, whether they be IC, PC, isolation, component changes, and I HEAR a difference, that is proof enough for me. When I hear new details I've never heard before, or instrumentation becomes less muddled and more defined/separated, then that is proof enough for me. Now, if this is all in my head, and is a mental/psychological construction, then fine. In my head I am hearing differences, and if I like them, then that's good enough for me.

My simple theory is that people listen more intently and notice things that get attributed to the change in the hardware. (There is no technical explanation for why wires may sound differently. People say that someday science will find the reason that wires sound differently, but it's also possible that someday this will be regarded as myth.)


JF

 

[Wodgy]

Hey guys, try to stay on topic. This is a thread about power cords. If you want to discuss whether headphone cords make a difference, start another thread.

 

[Len]

My personal observations:
I have only been able to discern audible differences in only three of the dozens of power cables I've auditioned. In my experience, they don't all make a difference, even the mega-buck ones. That's not to say there's a few out there that do.

I have a hard time discerning interconnect differences in solid state gear. In tube gear and particularly SET amps, differences are readily apparent.

The same is true for speaker cables as with interconnects, although to a more muted degree (IE, differences are more subdued, even between speaker cables). This applies to headphone cables as well.

I find that many times, it's difficult to discern differences when A/B'ing cables. But having lived with one cable for a long time then switching to another, the differences are more perceptible. It's entirely possible our brains are conditioned to listen to sound in a very specific fashion and that over time, we acclimate to our systems. This could possibly explain the concept of "burn-in" in some cases (that is, it's not the equipment that changes in quantifable value, but our brain changing the way it perceives the sound over chronic exposure).

 

[JohnFerrier]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ServinginEcuador John, I may indeed be surprised by the results. I won't be surprised by my own results as I've now had the Equinox cables for 8 months. I might be surprised that others aren't able to pick-up on the differences. I feel confident that with familiar music they will be able to tell the difference. Controlling the testing circumstances will be difficult, but not impossible. We'll have to have a room setup for this in which we could blindfold the person before entering, sit them down, and give them the remote control or the ability to have them repeat certain tracks of music. We'll need one person to record the results, one to switch the headphones, and possibly one to control the music. I don't know how we could double blind this type of testing as the person switching the headphones will know what is being used. If we ensure that the person switching the headphones has ZERO interaction with the subject we can eliminate anything short of some claim that they have psychic powers that allow them to communicate telepathically with the subject.

Sounds good Doug. I don't think it has to be too rigorous to get results. It will help the listener(s) to minimize as much ambient noises as possible.


JF

 

[JohnFerrier]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wodgy Hey guys, try to stay on topic. This is a thread about power cords. If you want to discuss whether headphone cords make a difference, start another thread.

Ooops, I'm kind of finished, though.


JF

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Len I find that many times, it's difficult to discern differences when A/B'ing cables. But having lived with one cable for a long time then switching to another, the differences are more perceptible. It's entirely possible our brains are conditioned to listen to sound in a very specific fashion and that over time, we acclimate to our systems.

I agree with this notion. The test under discussion proves that the participants could not hear a difference under the specific conditions of that particular test. But after you listen to the same piece of music for many, many times over the years, and then you change something in your system, and you hear an obvious difference, no one will be able to convince you that you didn't hear it and that a test like the one under discussion proves it. It doesn't. I know the effect that changing from stock power cords to an aftermarket power cords had on my system. After I made the change and I played a Diana Krall record that I am familiar with, did I hear the difference in the first 60 seconds, the first 75?, the first 120? Maybe yes, maybe no. I wasn't concentrating that hard or trying to determine that. But after listening for twenty to thirty minutes, it was obvious that I was hearing things on songs that I had not heard before. I know every note and subtlety of certain recordings, as I'm sure some of you do. I know when it sounds different.

And note the comments by John Atkinson in the article regarding the previous amp test regarding the Quad 405. He failed the test, and then switched to the cheapo amp, making the "biggest mistake of [his] audiophile career." Likewise, there is no way I'm going back to what the music used to sound like with my system because of this type of test.