[bfreedma]

Trolling in Sound Science is given far larger latitude than other Head-Fi sub forums. I’m interested in how the group would prefer to go forward. This is not meant as a knock on current moderation, just looking to gather data that might influence future content.

 

[bigshot]

The problem is that the trolls know they aren't going to be punished in Sound Science. The worst that happens usually is that a few posts get deleted. That means there is no risk associated with pushing the envelope. If we are prevented from going into the other forums on Head-Fi and arguing about placebo effect and blind testing, then the same should be true for people who come into Sound Science to argue against the scientific process and rational objectivism. I'd like to see some time outs in the form of thread and forum bans for the obvious trolls. It isn't hard to identify them.

Unfortunately, we have some members who have admitted that they can't tell the difference between a troll and someone who is just ignorant of the facts. That isn't a fault on their part, it's just a blind spot that the trolls take advantage of. It appears to not be possible to just ignore them. I think admins need to become more involved. Castle is fair and he can spot a troll when he sees one, but he isn't given the power to deal with them. And the people with the power to deal with trolling don't follow Sound Science, so they come in when the whole thing is a train wreck and assume both sides are at fault. But the truth doesn't lie halfway between two opposing points of view. This is Sound Science. We should be able to eliminate deliberate anti-science arguments so they don't derail the whole forum.

Tag team trolling doesn't just go away. The trolls are coming back again and again with different names. This has been a pattern for the last couple of years, and Gregorio's participation has been unfairly limited because of the actions of the trolls. If trolling was curtailed, there would be no reason to limit him, and this forum would go back to being a vital source of information for the hifi community. By allowing this to go on, we're wasting a valuable resource.

 

[bfreedma]

The problem is that the trolls know they aren't going to be punished in Sound Science. The worst that happens usually is that a few posts get deleted. That means there is no risk associated with pushing the envelope. If we are prevented from going into the other forums on Head-Fi and arguing about placebo effect and blind testing, then the same should be true for people who come into Sound Science to argue against the scientific process and rational objectivism. I'd like to see some time outs in the form of thread and forum bans for the obvious trolls. It isn't hard to identify them.

Unfortunately, we have some members who have admitted that they can't tell the difference between a troll and someone who is just ignorant of the facts. That isn't a fault on their part, it's just a blind spot that the trolls take advantage of. It appears to not be possible to just ignore them. I think admins need to become more involved. Castle is fair and he can spot a troll when he sees one, but he isn't given the power to deal with them. And the people with the power to deal with trolling don't follow Sound Science, so they come in when the whole thing is a train wreck and assume both sides are at fault. But the truth doesn't lie halfway between two opposing points of view. This is Sound Science. We should be able to eliminate deliberate anti-science arguments so they don't derail the whole forum.

Tag team trolling doesn't just go away. The trolls are coming back again and again with different names. This has been a pattern for the last couple of years, and Gregorio's participation has been unfairly limited because of the actions of the trolls. If trolling was curtailed, there would be no reason to limit him, and this forum would go back to being a vital source of information for the hifi community. By allowing this to go on, we're wasting a valuable resource.

I’ve PMd Joe (one of the lead mods) asking why sound science allows trolling that would be and is addressed in any other subforum. Hopefully I’ll get an explanation or an agreement to be more proactive with troll management.

If the response is that sound science is essentially a free for all, then we know we have the opportunity to be very direct in our responses to obvious trolls. As you know, I have no problem being doing that…

 

[bigshot]

Neither do I. And I can do it in a very few choice words and phrases. No need for paragraph breaks!

 

[taffy2207]

I think some regulars here are part of the problem here but can be a part of the solution.

Castles 'job' here is to moderate posts but it's our 'job' to moderate them too and also our behaviour on the forums.

Whenever someone trolls here you can ignore their posts or place them on ignore. What happens most of the time is that there's an inevitable 'pile on' that happens and it goes on and on for pages.

Taking pride in how you bring trolls down is beyond childish. Several people here need to drop down from their pedestals, if you have knowledge from your occupation that you like to tell other people about do it in a constructive way. Not everyone is an idiot because they don't know, we all have different skillsets. Some people just have an ardent curiosity in how certain things work but that doesn't mean they should have an encyclopaedic knowledge of everything to do with Audio.

Threads wander needlessly off topic because people want to win an argument. Happens frequently.

It shouldn't be about winning an argument, it should be about imparting knowledge.

If you want to solve a problem you should first ask yourself if you're part of that problem and what you can do to help solve it.

We've all done it, I'm no different. I've learned from it though. I'm sure we all remember Sonyfan1, but not all 'trolls' are that extreme. Some people probably don't even realise they are trolling because they misunderstand things or believe in the Marketing crap.

There's the inevitable trolls that get everything wrong, believe all the marketing, get proved wrong, leave in a tantrum. Then, they come back and it all starts again, it's attention seeking behaviour. It doesn't mean you have to give them that attention.

If they ramble on, you can always reply "Your question has been answered" or just plain ignore them and get back on topic if it's been derailed.

A lot of members here on head-fi are knee deep in marketing belief, they'll sink all the way in soon and can't be saved. You can try and drag them out but they'll keep sinking. Not everyone is going to believe the science, some people can't be saved.

Just one man's thoughts, as always.

 

[bigshot]

In order to ignore trolls, you have to be able to perceive them as trolls. One of our members has admitted that he can’t tell if people are trolling or just wrong. He replies every time, even when the rest of us have stopped. I don’t think he can moderate himself to ignore trolls. I think the trolls are aware of this and they target him and this group, knowing it will be a free for all with no punishment for bad behavior, because no one admins sound science like they do the rest of head Fi.

 

[cirrus101]

Taking pride in how you bring trolls down is beyond childish.

 

[gregorio]

I’m interested in how the group would prefer to go forward.

That’s a difficult question IMHO. I feel there should be tighter moderation but there should still be quite some latitude. For example:

If we are prevented from going into the other forums on Head-Fi and arguing about placebo effect and blind testing, then the same should be true for people who come into Sound Science to argue against the scientific process and rational objectivism.

I disagree. I think people should be able to discuss (make and refute) arguments against the scientific process and rational objectivism.

We should be able to eliminate deliberate anti-science arguments so they don't derail the whole forum.

Same again, we should be able to see and refute deliberate and inadvertent anti-science arguments. If we didn’t then the majority of threads is this subforum would have to be deleted. When they continue endlessly with the same reworded fallacies/falsehoods, there comes a point IMHO where we do need tighter moderation.

Some people probably don't even realise they are trolling because they misunderstand things or believe in the Marketing crap.

That’s certainly one of the difficulties and I think there should be a fair amount of latitude in these cases, to at least refute the misunderstandings and provide the facts so they can choose between the facts and the marketing crap (regardless of the fact they typically choose the latter) or for the potential benefit of others. And, it’s not necessarily clear whether we’re dealing with such an inadvertent troll or a deliberate troll. Obviously we have situations where it all goes too far, the defence of the misunderstandings/marketing crap just gets more and more ridiculously nonsensical and this is the point where tighter moderation could be applied IMHO.

Not everyone is an idiot because they don't know, we all have different skillsets. Some people just have an ardent curiosity in how certain things work but that doesn't mean they should have an encyclopaedic knowledge of everything to do with Audio.

I certainly do not expect people to have an encyclopaedic knowledge of audio, in fact I generally expect them to know relatively little beyond some marketing, because few here are professionals in the field. Although there are certainly some with very good knowledge of audio and obviously far better knowledge than me in their fields. I certainly attempt not to treat anyone as an idiot, at least until they start behaving as one.

G

 

[bfreedma]

I think some regulars here are part of the problem here but can be a part of the solution.

Castles 'job' here is to moderate posts but it's our 'job' to moderate them too and also our behaviour on the forums.

Whenever someone trolls here you can ignore their posts or place them on ignore. What happens most of the time is that there's an inevitable 'pile on' that happens and it goes on and on for pages.

Taking pride in how you bring trolls down is beyond childish. Several people here need to drop down from their pedestals, if you have knowledge from your occupation that you like to tell other people about do it in a constructive way. Not everyone is an idiot because they don't know, we all have different skillsets. Some people just have an ardent curiosity in how certain things work but that doesn't mean they should have an encyclopaedic knowledge of everything to do with Audio.

Threads wander needlessly off topic because people want to win an argument. Happens frequently.

It shouldn't be about winning an argument, it should be about imparting knowledge.

If you want to solve a problem you should first ask yourself if you're part of that problem and what you can do to help solve it.

We've all done it, I'm no different. I've learned from it though. I'm sure we all remember Sonyfan1, but not all 'trolls' are that extreme. Some people probably don't even realise they are trolling because they misunderstand things or believe in the Marketing crap.

There's the inevitable trolls that get everything wrong, believe all the marketing, get proved wrong, leave in a tantrum. Then, they come back and it all starts again, it's attention seeking behaviour. It doesn't mean you have to give them that attention.

If they ramble on, you can always reply "Your question has been answered" or just plain ignore them and get back on topic if it's been derailed.

A lot of members here on head-fi are knee deep in marketing belief, they'll sink all the way in soon and can't be saved. You can try and drag them out but they'll keep sinking. Not everyone is going to believe the science, some people can't be saved.

Just one man's thoughts, as always.

I agree with most of what you posted. My only ask is when trolls become obvious that moderation addresses them to avoid the loss of thread focus you describe.

For example, there are two obvious trolls currently posting in multiple threads. When a poster repeatedly comments that science is largely irrelevant and is trumped by personal “experience” in this subforum while continually insulting those who don’t agree, it’s time to go. No different than any other subforum on this site.

It’s one thing to lack knowledge and to be at least willing to discuss - clearly no issue there. Coming into sound science with nothing but subjective opinion and marketing material, digging your feet in and insulting everyone who disagrees without offering evidence? Again, time to go…

Bottom line for me - Sound Science should address trolling at the same level as the rest of this site. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[bigshot]

In the future, here is what I'm going to do...

1.) An annoying and oblivious poster will be given three chances (shots across the bow). I'll be patient up to the point I give the warnings, and after the first warning, I'll be clear in my displeasure without insults.

2.) When someone clearly crosses the line into clearly being a troll, I am going to call them out their disingenuousness succinctly and clearly in the thread without insults.

3.) After I've done that, I will no longer respond directly to their comments. No engaging with them, no quoting, no direct answers. If I reply at all, the comment will be directed to the rest of the group. The reason these guys troll is for attention. I won't give them that.

4.) If the person continues to troll, I'll notify admins in PM, and I will cc a copy of my complaint publicly to the thread so everyone else knows my objections. I won't tolerate attacks on myself or others. I'll report them every time through PM and cc'ed to the thread (even if that means dozens of them.)

5,) If the admins are slow to respond, I'll be patient and not resort to fighting back. It's clear they don't want that. Instead I'll continue 3 and 4.

Hopefully, this will help. I know not everyone has the ability to refrain from engaging with the trolls. That's not a good idea, but I understand, even if I don't recommend it. I'll leave that to them and the admins.

One comment about this thread... If we're forced to create a thread like this to talk about a problem among the regulars, the last thing we want to do is engage with the troll in this thread. We should have talked past him here and ignored his comments. Engaging with him here just craps up a thread intended to stop the thread crapping. Totally counter-productive.

If anyone else has ideas for the best way to handle this in the future, I'm open to suggestions.

 

[whitedragem]

@T1000 you could edit post 11 to ‘tack on’ contents of post 12?

to be fair I cannot believe a post like 11 can sit around ‘not moderated’ but understand why a mod *might* graciously give it a place to ponder… I suppose posts tell the story of the event unfolding; leaving them can help those later in time finding any given thread, can make sense of what was going on.

having had 2000 views (at the time I post this), and less than 20 poll results, perhaps more should cast a vote here? (I don’t have an opinion on that- but am amused that T1000 feels ‘safe enough’ to post on this thread ‘words to that affect’. (thats an obsure joke even by my standards- ‘effect’ and ‘affect’-subtle but real differences, and T1000 posting inflamatory comment might have give rise to emotional response (which seems to be the purpose))

I suppose biggest chuckle to me is reading BS’s “this is how I will respond to Trolls” comment- and if that was what prompted T1000s’ comment, ‘fair’,.. (fair to respond, although I’d probably go with a different line of engagement..)..
clearly emotions seem to rule the postings which I suppose is just as likely a seasonal thing right now..

I can see appropriate investigation (in the sound science subforum) that T1000s claim doesnt give mention as to ‘why’ they are losers.
perhaps citing previous posts would ‘give evidence’?
edit: oops!; T1000 might NOT be able to do that, ie in some instances ‘previous posts may have been deleted’.

 

[bigshot]

Those comments were follow ups to a post directed at me that I reported. It went way over the line and it was promptly deleted by the admins. Hopefully he has earned himself a forum ban. No need to discuss it further if he is gone for good.

 

[Elegiac]

Trolling is all that keeps this forum ticking over half the time, from what I can tell. It's like the Fight Club of Head-Fi.
I don't think you could become a mini-ASR through tougher moderation, you just don't have the numbers here.

I mean- and I'm not trying to be rude- do you guys even have anything to discuss? Devote more energy to creating your own conversations and then waiting patiently for people to discover them, rather than rousing yourselves for whatever blows through the door. It's a waste of energy/thought.

So, to be brutally honest, I don't care either way. I treat this forum as simultaneous entertainment and information. Like watching Documentaries and WWE at the same time ...what I do sorta care about, however, is your mental health. Being mired in internet drama ain't living, man.

 

[gregorio]

Trolling is all that keeps this forum ticking over half the time, from what I can tell.

To be fair, that’s true to an extent:

I don't think you could become a mini-ASR through tougher moderation, you just don't have the numbers here.

ASR didn’t have the numbers to start with either but that’s not the issue because this isn’t a review subforum and isn’t trying to become one. It’s just a forum dedicated to the discussion of sound/audio science.

Most of the science of sound/audio was done and dusted years/decades/centuries ago, so there’s not that much to “discuss” except:
A. The very occasional new product that claims some new science. Or
B. To state the done and dusted science in response to questions posted by visitors to the subforum.

The problem with “B” is that the “done and dusted science” commonly conflicts with the audiophile community myths/marketing/“herd think” and the audiophile community is where the vast majority of visitors posting questions here come from. So, unless they are open minded enough to consider the possibility that they (and their community) have been misled, they are most likely to just keep falling back on those audiophile falsehoods and keep repeating them, which is effectively trolling (albeit inadvertently). In addition, some others who visit here come with the sole intention of deliberately trolling in the first place.

I personally think this “inadvertent” group should be given every opportunity and banning should be the last resort, when every reasonable/rational avenue has been exhausted. I also think we should apply the principle of science here, namely; a suspicion, a strong suspicion or even highly probable isn’t enough, we have to be absolutely certain (or at least within a percentage point or so) before declaring they must be a troll and banning them. That level of certainty requires overwhelming evidence and a lack of rational alternatives. I think some here set a different bar, a strong suspicion or a balance of probability is enough to declare a troll and demand a ban.

I personally think the home page of this subforum should have a big obvious simple statement of the rules of posting in Sound Science, which are based on scientific principles, EG: Rationality, logic, where reliable evidence is required and what constitutes reliable evidence. It seems to me that such a statement would circumvent virtually all of the worst occurrences of threads degenerating into anarchy, it would save us the effort of repeatedly having to explain what reliable evidence is (and when it’s required), and, it would make Castle’s job considerably clearer and easier.

G

 

[Elegiac]

In addition, some others who visit here come with the sole intention of deliberately trolling in the first place.

And on principle, this is where I agree that your moderation should be tougher. And that it can be hard to tell the difference... so much ridiculous audiophile language is just begging to be abused for the purposes of trolling. Ditto ideas.

Nothing wrong with a slow, sane forum.

My point of view is pretty ruthless, I admit. But these are the facts as I see them.
And if I could clarify one more thing, it's not that I find trolling in itself amusing. I find it contemptible. One of the lowest pursuits. As if there isn't enough pointless conflict and misery in the world.
What I do enjoy is the acerbic, demented way it gets dealt with here. Where there is very little possibility of exploiting conceptual loopholes. I like to see trolls hit the factwall and then how hilariously stupid their replies progressively get. But I feel bad for the ones who don't seem(?) to be trolls, I wish they could inhabit their little bubble of reality peacefully, elsewhere. And I feel bad when the 'scientists' get worn down to the point of being upset.