Instructive and sad story about LCD-3 modification attempt

[roskodan]

 

I'm swimming upstream on this, I know, but I take a different lesson from this: don't attempt to mod headphones unless you're prepared to ruin them.

Headphones, by and large, are a completely manufactured, often machine-fabricated product.  Either they're too cheaply made to take apart or they're too expensive to risk it.  A headphone company is in the market to compete.  It's ridiculous to assume that a headphone mfr is not trying to make the best sounding headphone at the lowest price.  So, they've already optimized the audio quality.  It may not be to your own particular preference, but they tuned it to sell, period.  Likewise for the manufacturing - pricing is so competitive worldwide, that every effort is going to be made to reduce manufacturing and fabrication costs.  That doesn't always mean the result is going to be easy to dis-assemble and re-assemble.  More often, it won't be - repeatable connectors/fasteners are always more expensive.

I've been a bit dismayed at how this forum section has seemed to transition from electronics and electrical DIY to modding headphones.  It seems to be the tide that's sweeping around here lately.  There have been some notable successes in modding with the Fostex planars, but those are a glaring exception, not the rule.  This thread is an example of that.

I'm sort of hoping that the tide will go out on this headphone modding wave and we can get back to actually creating entire products with DIY instead of the latest blu-tack and sock mods.  JMHO, but I'm probably in the minority right now.

I understand your view, but a $2,000 headphone should not have these inconsistencies with the frequency response in the treble and neither should it have those issues with the pads.

in fact even without measuring there have always been customers complaining about the sound deviations, from sample to sample, across the lcd product range
 
1) i suppose the OP thought his measurements applied to all the lcd3 manufactured, hence the need to do the mod as the only possible way in getting a '$2000' sound/measurement/quality (or it was purely a curiosity/scientific thing, perhaps out of warranty as well?)
 
2) while the truth is that each lcd3 (or any model in the lcd series) is different in sound and measurement from sample to sample (even the hd800 do, each have its own graph which is visibly different, although the margin of 'error' is much lower), as they are manufactured in a niche, home made, kind of process, in other terms, with loose or no strict standards, low tech manufacturing with higher margin of 'error' (this is not a bad thing, it's just how niche works)
 
3) that's why there is a warranty and/or return period, so if the product does not match a '$2000' standard, which is also a highly subjective matter in audio (not to mention gear matching, and the effect of the whole chain on the headphone's performance/sound), you can have the manufacturer to deal with that risk, no need to do their job
 
other than that, for diy-ers, it's very sound to be well documented and informed to limit unexpected risks, like the disposable diaphragm assembly, while diy-ing
 
also i doubt a lcd3 with better measurements would be proportionally better sounding, or even make a meaningful audible difference, that's just how the lcd3 treble is, it takes another headphones to change this i suspect, since my old lcd3 2013 had that kind of hot treble compared to my lcd2 and my lcd-x
 
this thread reminded me of some folks that do not like a piece of gear and then start buying oils and dusts, so to speak, instead to just get rid of the d***ed m*f*, LOL

 

[keanex]

I don't recall anyone here talking about the sound quality, but rather the build quality. Huge deviations in drivers shouldn't be accepted in $100 headhones and they certainly shouldnt be acceptable in $2,000 headphones, the same goes for the pads.

For $2,000 that headphone better be measured to tight specifications with nearly perfect driver matching and nearly perfect pad matching.

I was able to hear an LCD-X the other day and thought they sounded fine, but in the back of my mind I couldn't help but think of this thread.

 

[roskodan]

EDIT: also what i meant is that the poor assembly and fit&finish of the fazor/pads was the cause of the treble mismatch but i don't believe it was the cause of the harsh/fatiguing treble, i don't know if the OP heard any improvement in that regard after modding, before the drivers were damaged?
 
Quote:

I don't recall anyone here talking about the sound quality, but rather the build quality. Huge deviations in drivers shouldn't be accepted in $100 headhones and they certainly shouldnt be acceptable in $2,000 headphones, the same goes for the pads.

For $2,000 that headphone better be measured to tight specifications with nearly perfect driver matching and nearly perfect pad matching.

I was able to hear an LCD-X the other day and thought they sounded fine, but in the back of my mind I couldn't help but think of this thread.

come on people read the OP at least before replying, and driver matching translate to SQ btw, as well as all the quality related issues, all of which is covered by warranty and customer support
 

I understand your view, but a $2,000 headphone should not have these inconsistencies with the frequency response in the treble and neither should it have those issues with the pads.

 

 So, what should be improved.
 

• Owner asked me to do something with high frequencies, being "too harsh" for him on some records, but he wanted to keep bass intact. On my first listening, they seemed to be really fatiguing on highs, especially on female vocals. I've made measurements that showed pretty noticable channel imbalance on highs.

  

 

[keanex]

 
come on people read the OP at least before replying, and driver matching translate to SQ btw, as well as all the quality related issues, all of which is covered by warranty and customer support
 
 

Driver mismatch is 100% build quality/quality control issues. They should never leave the factory, warehouse or whatever with big differences like that. Covered by warranty or not, I could maybe accept it in a $100 headphone but if you think that's acceptable in a $1,700 headphone then I am not going to get my point across to you. $1,700 is damn near the most expensive currently in production headphone out there. It should set the bar for how companies handle build and quality issues and this is not acceptable no matter how you want to rationalize it.
 
If a customer doesn't like the sound signature that is his problem, "hot treble" is never a customer support issue for any company as that is subjective. What isn't subjective is huge deviations in frequency response. What you linked to is showing huge driver deviations which is a quality control issue and 100% unacceptable. This doesn't include the dust/hair issues mentioned which make me wonder what sort of conditions these are being assembled in.

 

[roskodan]

hm... point taken and agreed, but i can't but think about the fact that stax is at $5k msrp and still had/have similar issues, while with the hd800 at $1.5k and i never really read about any such quality issues... my point is that nobody, with realistic expectations and a broader picture on the matter, is expecting sennheiser standards from audeze or stax, it just doesn't work like that, for thousands of reasons which i could number here all day long, but are mostly summarized in my previous post's #2 point... haters gonna hate ... and i eagerly bought any product that i know its manufacturer stood behind it with excellent CS and warranty, as audeze does, schiit is gonna happen

 

[gabriel-dan]

2K is a lot of money for headphones and at this price range you are not only paying for sound quality, but also build quality. Those pics show a poor manufacturing quality control for a product that is suppose to be top notch and one the best in the world. No excuse.

 

[ZGLISZCZ]

I think the same, I didnt expect such a messy work. You dont need hi-tek lab to glue diaphragm clean and straight. And missmatch on the pads...

 

[manywelps]

Flat diaphragms of planars are very sensitive to multipath sound reflections. If you place your palms opposite grills closer then 30 cm

I actually noticed this with my ESP-950's.  Bloody weird effect.

 

[wnmnkh]

This is well-known issue except in Head-Fi
 
http://ko.goldenears.net/board/4418338
 
One of the reasons why Audeze in my country does not gain much hype.

 

[aive]

What a joke. I've always sensed channel imbalance with my LCDs but always thought it was in my mind/hearing loss...

Already replaced my drivers once due to failure. Plug is now falling out of cup on one side so second RMA soon.... F'n joke.

 

[roskodan]

looks like QC is terrible at audeze nowdays, i remember my first lcd2, with wooden xlr sockets, there was rarely any issue reported, apart from a driver failure here and there, personally never had any issue, then i got a 2013 classic lcd3, no issues there apart maybe some slight difference in pad thickness, but the last one i got, the lcdx, came with drivers mismatched in phase, one was wired wrong, with inverted '+' and '-' wires... on the other hand i bought my 4th hd800 the other day, never had any issues with any of em, seems like audeze forgot how to make good sounding luxury headphones... i don't know if they let such defective units pass hoping those will sell to less experienced buyers that won't notice or what...!?!

 

[cleg]

Now, successful modification stories

First one about LCD-2

Snorry, author of the first mod, described here, made successful LCD-2 mod. Headphones owner asked him to make sound darker to remove harshness on highs and make sound more smooth.

LCD-2 have much better Phazor alignment, channel imbalance is much better, headpads are equal.




First picture — original FR, second — with new headpads, made by Snorry



Final version




This version features other grill, changed dampers on both size, new hedpads, now easily replaceable and sewn with taking into account headphones' owner anatomy.

Final version photo.

 

[cleg]

And now... ta-dam... second pair of LCD-3 for modification. Owner's arguing about harsh sound and sibilance.

Measurements shows some peaks on highs, imperfect channel balance and rough highs.



Snorry promised to do his best to fix this, now without driver disassembly Only headpads, grill, damping and acoustic treatment.

I'll keep this thread updated.

 

[ZGLISZCZ]

Btw guys, if anyone would like to 3d print "fazor replacements" for pre fazor lcd2 then you can grab ready to print file from here:
https://sketchfab.com/models/2ad2680119914de69ab8fb7dfeaedd28
(I think for one of the sides you will need to sand it a bit)
 
and here is BMF post with before/after measurements and impressions: http://www.head-fi.org/t/618659/fostex-t50rp-incremental-mods-and-measurements/1455#post_11126156
 
they are not a replica of real fazors and have different cross-section but seems like it did some improvements.
 
Sorry for bit offtopic, but maybe you would like to try them

 

[Sonic Defender]

I try to be fair and realize that creating quality headphones is likely quite difficult, but with proper processes and inspections in place it should be possible. For those that don't think 2K is really that expensive (frankly I think we are desensitized to high prices) consider that for only 8 times that cost you can get an entire car! My brother just purchased a nice new car for 16K and it has all kinds of bells and whistles, plus a fairly nice little stock stereo. Think about that, how many different parts and suppliers, layers of manufacture, transport and other expenses happen before the car even makes it to the dealers lot where some money is still to be made. While I know it isn't exactly a fair comparison, it isn't really unreasonable either. Put that small headphone on the trunk of that vehicle and stand back and try to take the scope into account. Yes, far better quality control is completely warranted here folks, absolutely.