iFi audio iDSD Signature - The saga continues!
Sep 28, 2023 at 12:55 PM Post #2,086 of 2,194
Am I right in thinking the Micro iDSD Signature is now discontinued?

Glad I've got mine. I really love having the option of Xbass & 3D/XSpace for when it's to fill out some gaps from time to time.

I was looking that the ifi lineup online yesterday - the Gryphon is the Swiss army knife of portables but what's missing (IMHO) is something like the Go Bar with its own battery (bluetooth not necessary). Something with within the realms of dongle form factor that doesn't drain your phone l, but has the power, sonic performance and fun buttons on top. An ifi Colibri (or smaller) so to speak.

Maybe not quite what you want but for small + battery power they do have hip dac and IDK for sure but Go Blu might have USB function if its similar to other devices of that type.
 
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Oct 17, 2023 at 10:02 PM Post #2,087 of 2,194
Hi all, I'm an early iDSD Signature purchaser and also have RME ADI-2 DAC, iBasso DX228 and iDSD Gryphon and the Signature is still way and above my favourite sounding DAC/AMP with my Fostex TH610 Lawton Headphones. Lush, just a slight bit of warmth and full bodied with a sweet finish... much like this 2006 Cabernet Sauvignon... perfect combo eh!20230606_171519.jpg
Heyyyy nice to see fellow Lawton modded Fostex headphones around. And good to hear you're enjoying the combo!

I'm currently borrowing my friend's older silver iDSD and I really like it! Using it on Lawton TH900 at the moment.

I have a few questions, I only use it on desktop and don't need the portability. Would I be better off getting a Zen stack instead? Or will I only get the sound quality / tonality from the iDSD line?

Was thinking to get the iDSD Signature but I have a few concerns. I keep reading about the channel imbalance, is that fixed? Also would the battery degrade quickly if I have it charged all the time as desktop units? And I'd have to turn on the iDSD before it would it show up on the list on my PC right?

It started to sound like a lot of inconvenience for desktop use......

What do you guys think? Thanks!

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Oct 19, 2023 at 2:16 AM Post #2,091 of 2,194
Ok... so... I'm listening to Enya at low, lullaby volume (as one should), on a Sendy Peacock, which is a pretty sensitive headphone, pretty low power requirements. Zero channel imbalance nonsense at low volume, very easy (though not the world's easiest) headphone to drive.

Currently I'm at one level above the quietest the amp can be. If I put the volume super low, meaning below the appropriate Enya lullaby volume, there is channel imbalance nonsense. However if I go down to eco/ultra sensitive iem match, I can make this thing as quiet as any human could ever want to listen, with no channel imbalance at all. And that's with a quite easy to drive headphone.

Realistically, even with a fairly sensitive headphone, even at low volume, I don't need eco/ultra sensitive to prevent channel imbalance.
 
Oct 19, 2023 at 3:26 AM Post #2,092 of 2,194
Oh nice. How do you like the Finale? Have you had any of the other versions to compare?

I used to have a Black Label. But I never heard the Black Label with the headphone I'm listening with now, a Sendy Peacock. This setup sounds really impressive in terms of soundstaging, and the detail is also pretty nice. I know for a fact, however, that the Peacock's stock cable which I'm currently listening with is trash compared to the 600 dollar silver cable I'm about to send off to be re terminated for use with this rig.

The stock Peacock cable is 4.4mm balanced, so I am getting the full soundstaging ability of the Finale, but probably nothing near the max detail this headphone can deliver out of this dac/amp. I'm also using optical for my source, which does seem to sound great (probably better than any affordable USB cable), but I believe I can get even better sound quality if I use a high end USB cable instead, which is my ultimate goal.

From what I've read online, the Signature (at least if you use 4.4mm rather than SE) has a bit larger soundstage than the Black Label, as well as better sound separation. I suspect that is the main improvement I'm enjoying here, and the Finale might only just be adding a small amount of additional detail, or stage size vs the Sig.

I'd be curious to hear iFi's own take on this: I know the Finale has superior capacitors, but what aspects of the sound do such capacitors affect?
 
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Oct 20, 2023 at 7:07 AM Post #2,093 of 2,194
I have a few questions, I only use it on desktop and don't need the portability. Would I be better off getting a Zen stack instead?

The ZEN line was a sideways step. The electronic circuits are essentially the same as in higher end models, however power supplies are rather compromised, but options to improve this exist. Sadly, the originally intended super capacitor power supply upgrade never made it into the serious design stage.

I think ZEN DAC & CAN with upgraded power supplies should be comparable to the iDSD micro (original silver) and the "Signature's" to the Black Label / Signature / Finale.

Was thinking to get the iDSD Signature

Get a second hand iDSD micro Black Label instead.

I keep reading about the channel imbalance, is that fixed?

It got mostly fixed and then came loose again, maybe it is back to fixed. If you use the gain/power settings and iEMatch correctly this should not be a great issue in practice.

Also would the battery degrade quickly if I have it charged all the time as desktop units?

No, the iDSD micro has a "desktop mode", which it enters after being turned off with a fully charged battery and the charging power maintained "on". It will stop charging the battery and will allow self discharge of the battery to drop the voltage to 3.9V, where the battery essentially in the same condition as "on shelf".

A caveat is that this is defeated if external power is removed or the unit is unplugged.

And I'd have to turn on the iDSD before it would it show up on the list on my PC right?

Should not be.

If plugged in it should be available as USB Audio device, it needs to be turned on to power up the actual DAC, analogue stages and headphone amp to actually get sound out.

Thor
 
Oct 20, 2023 at 8:24 AM Post #2,094 of 2,194
Hi @Thorsten Loesch , to help others here with the often discussed power supply thread (I know somewhere you posted a link to aliexpress), you could be comment to the following:

Zens comes with iPower2 5V/2.5A, if driving low ohms headphones or iems Power shouldn’t be the problem (for the DAC at least). So when do you think power is an issue for the AMP?

When we talk about noise, what’s about using iPowerX 5V/3A with (by company info) improved noise reduction? And do you talk about the DAC or the AMP (or both).

P.S. My iDSD Signature runs fine, like not to switch the Pentaconn from my headphone but must accept balance issues up to 11 o clock (maybe we should order some potis and use a soldering iron ourselves)
 
Oct 20, 2023 at 9:50 AM Post #2,095 of 2,194
I think ZEN DAC & CAN with upgraded power supplies should be comparable to the iDSD micro (original silver) and the "Signature's" to the Black Label / Signature / Finale.
This is the best explanation I've read so far out of my countless research on this matter LOL.

This is really good to know, thank you so much!
Get a second hand iDSD micro Black Label instead.
Oh how come you recommend Black Label instead of Signature?
Zens comes with iPower2 5V/2.5A, if driving low ohms headphones or iems Power shouldn’t be the problem (for the DAC at least). So when do you think power is an issue for the AMP?
I'm wondering about this too, since my headphone is pretty sensitive (TH900) and doesn't need that level of power, would a Zen Signature Stack + Upgraded power supply be close enough? Or there's more to it than simply having more/less power.
 
Oct 20, 2023 at 10:05 AM Post #2,096 of 2,194
Zens comes with iPower2 5V/2.5A, if driving low ohms headphones or iems Power shouldn’t be the problem (for the DAC at least). So when do you think power is an issue for the AMP?

First, the ZEN DAC runs the headphone amplifier on 5V and the amplifier Chip(s) make a negative 5V supply for +/-5V.

It is a Class AB design for portable gear with very low power consumption without signal (~ 5mA @ 5V for 2 channels - 25mW idle power consumption).

It is designed to drive 16 Ohm headphones at 3.3V Power supplies with > 100mW output. It is meant to drive a "standard" earbud (100dB/mW) with 16 Bit+ dynamic range performance. Output power is quite limited even at 5V.

The Zen CAN run's the headphone amplifier on +/- 12V, it is a "high bias" class AB design (often marketed as "Class A", it is Class A up to a point, Class AB after that), which consumes copious amounts of power even without signal (240mA @ +/- 12V for 4 Channels - balanced - 5760mW). The power supply is around 70% efficient so without signal the Zen can consumes ~ 8VA @ 5V, or ~1.6A.

Now if a power supply maxes out at 2.5A and 1.6A are used up to run the circuit without signal, there is not much left over to drive hard to drive Headphones.

To put it simple, an easy to drive headphone has moderate impedance and high sensitivity. IEM's for example have very low impedance, but their sensitivity is so high, they need very little power to go very loud (and so background noise from the Amp is high as well).

An example would be Campfire Andromeda, with a whopping 141dB/1V and 8.8 Ohm average impedance. So to get 115dB SPL (which is very loud) it needs 0.05V (50mV) and 5.6mA current (both RMS). A problem is that if the Amplifier has (say) -100dB/V noise which is not that bad really, the background hiss will be at around 40dB SPL (which is quite annoying) and to get the background absolutely quiet an impossible -140dB/V noise level is needed.

A hard to drive headphone is one with low sensitivity and either high impedance (here we need a lot of voltage) or low impedance (there we need a lot of current).

Two examples are the AKG K240 Studio 600Ohm which is 91dB/1mW which translates to 12.4V & 20mA for 115dB and the DCA Expanse with 87dB/1mW and rated 23 Ohm which translates into 3.8V & 165mA for 115dB.

When we talk about noise, what’s about using iPowerX 5V/3A with (by company info) improved noise reduction? And do you talk about the DAC or the AMP (or both).

Due to design, the ZEN DAC will be more sensitive to power supply noise, while for ZEN CAN peak current available is the key metric.

P.S. My iDSD Signature runs fine, like not to switch the Pentaconn from my headphone but must accept balance issues up to 11 o clock

When iFi had proper QA/QC, balance issues should have been not noticeable after ~ 8 maximally 9 O'Clock. I do not think 11 O'Clock is acceptable.

(maybe we should order some potis and use a soldering iron ourselves)

If you can something that fits and has better channel balance, by all means.

My understanding is that the combination of Stereo Pot and switch makes it hard to manufacture with correct tracking. This was already in place for the second or third batch of the silver iDSD micro. When proper QC was in place more than 50% of potentiomenters received from the factory were rejected as unacceptable. There is a long story how this developed from there and how the problem reappeared after being fixed, I wrote it somewhere already. End result, everything went back to as it was before, except the over 50% rejects ended up in customers products.

For the HIP DAC I had already designed out the switch on the Pot and replaced it with push-button, this was reverted back to pot with switch. The Pot & Switch were also retained for versions of the iDSD micro following my departure (Signature, Finale, Diablo) as well, despite better solutions being fully developed. Take the Zen CAN, it has no switch on the pot (and a push button power switch) and no balance issues I heard of.

Thor
 
Oct 20, 2023 at 10:17 AM Post #2,097 of 2,194
Oh how come you recommend Black Label instead of Signature?

If you get a black label you don't have to run it in, it will already have been.

From what I saw in the PCB Photo's, there is little difference between the BL, Sig and Fin when it comes to the parts that make a difference in sound quality. And a second hand BL will likely leave you change from 300 USD.

I'm wondering about this too, since my headphone is pretty sensitive (TH900) and doesn't need that level of power

TH-900 was clocked as 112dB/1V with 26 Ohm impedance:

https://reference-audio-analyzer.pro/en/report/hp/fostex-th-900.php#gsc.tab=0

A "Hip DAC" or "ZEN DAC" should drive it ok, using SE output.

A ZEN CAN using the fixed line out from the ZEN DAC should sound better (again, use SE Out), it can be switched to 0dB Gain which is appropriate for then TH-900 (use "ECO" on iDSD micro) and will drive the TH-900 to > 115dB in Class A.

would a Zen Signature Stack + Upgraded power supply be close enough? Or there's more to it than simply having more/less power.

The TH-900 needs little power, so I'd recommend using the stock PSU on the 'CAN and give the ZEN DAC an external PSU, be it a verified good Aliexpress linear PSU or a iFi iPower.

Thor
 
Oct 20, 2023 at 2:37 PM Post #2,099 of 2,194
@Thorsten Loesch Why do you pronounce SE for the TH900?

The balanced output is in effect bridged. That means each one of the two amplifiers in the system sees half the impedance of the headphone.

Each time impedance is halved, distortion is about doubled.

So with low impedance headphones normally the SE output is preferred as it will have less distortion (less noise too).

Balanced amplification for headphones is generally not a great idea, except for high impedance, low sensitivity Headphones.

Try it out.

Thor
 

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