iFi audio iDSD Signature - The saga continues!

[Hyde00]

when Hong Kong was free

LOL I try not to bring politics into an audio forum.

But won't deny that I had a chuckle when I read that comment.

Source: From Taiwan.

 

[Assationater]

Source: From Taiwan.

Nice country

 

[Thorsten Loesch]

Differentiating live music from a recording is not the same as differentiating a reproduction of recorded music played through the same transducers by very similar electronics.

I do not disagree. But the point I was making is subtly different.

We are dealing with human perception. That is a very interesting subject.

Let us for a moment presume that the differences exist, are resl and are subtle.

Let's say like the differences between Rijoca Red Wine different Bodegas and years.

They all taste more alike than different, but there are difference's and differences that can reflect significant price differences.

Of course there are also people who insist all red wine really tastes the same.

How can we somehow systemise assessing these differences?

I will take your response to support the idea that vast numbers of “audiophiles” genuinely hear differences with all sorts of gear even when science cannot measure a difference and when human perception of sound (at least this human) is, at least, really rather variable and maybe could even be described as unreliable in certain circumstances.

Nope.

I know what differences I consider as audible and more critically, where preference falls in these differences.

Because I researched it, in practice.

Specifically how to create "good sound", which is a whole different kettle of fish of course, from "does it sound different".

Some items I was convinced should have been audible, turned out not to be.

At least in the scope of what we did, which meant there was no reliable preference among listeners and thus with our analysis no confirmed difference (we tested for preference).

Others I was convinced should not cause audible differences did show them.

Past that I do not find the "evidence" presented by, shall we call them "objectivists" convincing. It's all extremely bad science.

Many people these days believe in terrible science.

Be it particle physics (do watch Sabine Hossenfelder, not as a sole source of information, but for perspective), auditory testing or how vaccines cause autism and so on.

So I'm not surprised to see it in audio.

If I had a dollar for each time I encounter bad science I'd rival Elon and if I took umbrage each time I'd fight more windmills than Don Quixote.

Thank you for your time,

Thank you for yours in reading my missive.

Thor

PS, shout-out to the Republic Of China! Illegitimi non carborundum.

PPS, Kinmen Baiju is great.

 

[BS5711]

Let's say like the differences between Rijoca Red Wine different Bodegas and years.

They all taste more alike than different, but there are difference's and differences that can reflect significant price differences.

Of course there are also people who insist all red wine really tastes the same.

To muddy the waters of the wine comparison, it is also entirely possible that somebody can be convinced that two glasses of wine from the same bottle are different if they are told they are different and that one is far more expensive and the other much cheaper. That is the sort of audio analogy that I am alluding to.

An experienced wine expert would immediately know they are the same wine, a beer drinker may well be deceived, in audio you are the former and I am the latter so thanks for your input

For clarity I am a wine drinker from a small wine village and I certainly do not think all red wine tastes the same

Indeed on the grinding down, I have no particular personal axe to grind but I applaud the middle finger response so far.

 

[Assationater]

it is also entirely possible that somebody can be convinced that two glasses of wine from the same bottle are different if they are told they are different and one is far more expensive and the other much cheaper

8 times out of 10 i still prefer the sound of cheaper gear, or an entirely cheaper chain. And not because 'i can barely hear a difference between this $1 and $1000 cable'
i just think the cheaper stuff sounds better.

 

[BS5711]

8 times out of 10 i still prefer the sound of cheaper gear, or an entirely cheaper chain. And not because 'i can barely hear a difference between this $1 and $1000 cable'
i just think the cheaper stuff sounds better.

I have never had that experience but mine has certainly been that cheap gear sounds much more the same than different to much more expensive gear, I refrained from saying "the same" just to leave the possibility open

I blind compared a $10 Apple Dongle to a $1,000 DAC/Amp and volume matched powering IEM where power output wasn't a factor they sounded identical in normal general listening to music. Maybe it might have been possible to pick up subtle differences if going back and forth on selected parts of a track but that isn't how I listen to music so doing that was of no interest or value to me.

Can I offer that the cheap stuff might sound better to you if in fact it only actually sounds the same since your psychological bias creates a preference because of the massive value proposition it presents ? If you blind compared them you may not hear a difference at all ??

Anyway, we have probably derailed this thread enough

 

[Assationater]

Can I offer that the cheap stuff might sound better to you if in fact it only actually sounds the same since your psychological bias creates a preference because of the massive value proposition it presents ? If you blind compared them you may not hear a difference at all ??

I mean that would make sense, there shouldn't really be any reason for me to continue spending money on audio tbh, i am fine with bluetooth earbuds and youtube compression lol. But once i heard differences in ssd's, its just an obsession to try different gear and see what the differences are for myself.

So I got this pricy cable, there better be a difference! And I trick myself into believing it.
On the other hand I think WAV sounds worse than flac, and i hate both 'knowing' that both sound inferior to ALAC and even youtube compression for me, freaking why man?
I will be the first to say audio is diminishing returns past $50. But even so everything in my chain makes a difference to me.

If you blind compared them you may not hear a difference at all

I dont suppose that matters too too much for 'hardcore' audiophiles who are simply willing to spend money and mess around with gear,
(My favorite headphone is only $80. I've demo'd the senn he1, hifiman susvara, focal whatchamahasit, etc. My favorite dac is only $250, ive tried the pro idsd sig, etc)
If audio is diminishing returns after $1, something either emits sound or it doesnt, everything after is just the cherry on top imo.

Even if the difference is real or not real, night and day vs extremely subtle and a blind test 'invalidates' it,
A voodoo magic bs cable or completely scientifically real headphone, what matters is if they think its worth it to spend their money on.

If someone wants to try out a magic usb reclocker, I say try it, if you can't hear a difference great, if you can, great, now is it WORTH it? If not return it.
It's their own money, their own responsibility, their own ears.

*Our ears and minds are easy to trick* I agree, but go down that route too too far and you wouldn't even be able to trust your own preference of sound whatsoever no?
For me its easy to justify not blind testing because I usually like the cheaper gear to begin with, so I go in fully knowing what I buy isnt the most efficient use of money.
For someone else who always thinks the more expensive cable is always superior, I suppose they'd always have to blind test everything,
Sorry for the rant!

Anyway, we have probably derailed this thread enough

Eh ifi hasnt complained yet!

 

[BS5711]

I mean that would make sense, there shouldn't really be any reason for me to continue spending money on audio tbh, i am fine with bluetooth earbuds and youtube compression lol. But once i heard differences in ssd's, its just an obsession to try different gear and see what the differences are for myself.

So I got this pricy cable, there better be a difference! And I trick myself into believing it.
On the other hand I think WAV sounds worse than flac, and i hate both 'knowing' that both sound inferior to ALAC and even youtube compression for me, freaking why man?
I will be the first to say audio is diminishing returns past $50. But even so everything in my chain makes a difference to me.

I dont suppose that matters too too much for 'hardcore' audiophiles who are simply willing to spend money and mess around with gear,
(My favorite headphone is only $80. I've demo'd the senn he1, hifiman susvara, focal whatchamahasit, etc. My favorite dac is only $250, ive tried the pro idsd sig, etc)
If audio is diminishing returns after $1, something either emits sound or it doesnt, everything after is just the cherry on top imo.

Even if the difference is real or not real, night and day vs extremely subtle and a blind test 'invalidates' it,
A voodoo magic bs cable or completely scientifically real headphone, what matters is if they think its worth it to spend their money on.

If someone wants to try out a magic usb reclocker, I say try it, if you can't hear a difference great, if you can, great, now is it WORTH it? If not return it.
It's their own money, their own responsibility, their own ears.

*Our ears and minds are easy to trick* I agree, but go down that route too too far and you wouldn't even be able to trust your own preference of sound whatsoever no?
For me its easy to justify not blind testing because I usually like the cheaper gear to begin with, so I go in fully knowing what I buy isnt the most efficient use of money.
For someone else who always thinks the more expensive cable is always superior, I suppose they'd always have to blind test everything,
Sorry for the rant!

Eh ifi hasnt complained yet!

Rant ?

You make a great deal more sense than most of Head Fi !!

Cheers for the friendly banter

 

[Thorsten Loesch]

8 times out of 10 i still prefer the sound of cheaper gear, or an entirely cheaper chain.

Price is not (or better no longer) a reliable indicator of quality.

It used to be that pricing was the manufacturing cost plus a reasonable profit for manufacturer, distributor and retailers.

Even then a product may end up over build and underperforming, so poor value for money because it was made too expensive, but price related to manufacturing expense.

Pricing is most often these days one of two.

For generic products (which may be identical in principle to non-generic products) the pricing is generally as low as it can made without making the product useless (and sometimes making it useless) and this is reflected in production cost which is made as low as possible.

For "premium" products the sales price often completely unrelated to production cost and based on "what we think the market will bear, without going bear market on our product".

So most "premium" products tend to overpriced. Such products are sold on the strength of marketing over the product itself. It doesn't necessarily make the products bad in themselves, but often the same result and quality can be obtained with considerably lower expense.

Like, we already have the Large Hadron Collider. And other than the Higgs Boson it did not confirm anything new. The Higgs Boson was in principle known before, it just lacked experimental validation.

The LHC cost nearly 5 Billion USD to build and operation costs are over 5 Billion annually. Is that really money well spent?

Now CERN wants 23 Billion for an even bigger and better collider that will not really drlivef much of anything.

The next big thing in particle physics is much more likely to come from a totally different angle at a much lower cost.

Ok, I digress, but the billions upon billions for the LHC did not generate a hell of a lot of tangible results and non that can be monetised. But it sure is big and expensive!

To muddy the waters of the wine comparison, it is also entirely possible that somebody can be convinced that two glasses of wine from the same bottle are different if they are told they are different and that one is far more expensive and the other much cheaper.

To muddy these waters even further, the two glasses of wine may really taste different if the shape of the glass is very different. Or if the time the wine spent in the glass varies a lot.

And we might even, with the right bias and prompting trick the taster into believing that the wine fresh from the bottle, that just came from the cellar and is in the wrong glass is the "better" wine, compared to the one that was aereated and allowed to teach room temperature and is in the correct glass.

As I said, human perception. Very curious subject. It makes particle physics seem quite sedate and unimaginative and reliable. It might even make string theory seem reasonable.

Thor

 

[Hyde00]

8 times out of 10 i still prefer the sound of cheaper gear, or an entirely cheaper chain. And not because 'i can barely hear a difference between this $1 and $1000 cable'
i just think the cheaper stuff sounds better.

I can chime in a bit with my personal experience. For the longest time I feel the same way.

I started with Denon D2000 and for the longest time I tried to upgrade, but I find I always come back to the D2000.

Then when I got the D5200 it was the same, I tried the flagship D9200 then came back to the D5200.

Later I learned that entry level headphone are tuned for pop / rock while flagship are tuned for classical / jazz. I listen to pop and rock mainly which might explain this. Conversely I also like Grado for the same reason.

I did find D2000 sounds good on any source gear but it doesn't scale much, D5200 also sounds good on everything but scale a bit better. That is until I got Fostex TH900 which is picky as hell on source gear (luckily sounds good on iDSD Signature) but when the stars aligned then it can scale up quite a bit with the right gear.

So you liking cheaper stuff could be preference in genre of music and also possibly headphone with DAC/amp synergy. There might be higher end gear out there to your preference but might need to dig around a bit until you find the right one. But if you're enjoying music as is, then maybe you don't really need to "upgrade" if that makes sense.

 

[Assationater]

There might be higher end gear out there to your preference but might need to dig around a bit until you find the right one.

I also need to start wasting money on combining 5 ifi usb filters and 5 ipower's in series for no reason lol.
And yep it seems that whenever a system is more 'technically' superior, transparency detail and all that, instrumental tracks 90% of the time sound good(er)
I do infact listen to pop and anime opening mostly so you're right on the money haha.