If you had $10k and were starting from scratch…

[ThanatosVI]

How @Leporello and @fliz see their online sparring:

How everybody else sees their online sparring:

And so I'm not completely off topic:
If I had $10k to "start from scratch", I'd spend it on...
HD 6XX — $220
Apple dongle — $9
74 years of Apple Music — $9,768
300 pieces of penny bubble gum — $3
total — $10,000

Maybe I'd also get myself a turntable, 'cause I like physical media and record shopping, plus I've been lusting after an SL-100C, so, like $1,500 for that setup. Which is fine, because I don't want to live for another 74 years and I really don't like bubble gum.

So you don't expect any Apple Music price increases in 74 years?

Wouldn't that be lovely?

 

[megabigeye]

I'VE BEEN A LOYAL APPLE CUSTOMER SINCE THE '80S, SURELY I'M GRANDFATHERED IN!?

 

[castleofargh]

THD doesn't tell the whole story. Theory and practice are miles apart from each other.

I explain the general physical limitations of headphones and list several variables you can readily verify. You respond about uncertainty and variations on the theme of the wife hearing the differences from the kitchen. So I give a specific example with a variable you can find for nearly all existing products to again verify for yourself, THD. I use real values and calculation to illustrate my point in the most concrete way I can think of. And now you reply by saying that my specific example isn't everything... You don't say.

I can lead the horse to water, but I can't make it wear a bikini.

 

[megabigeye]

I can lead the horse to water, but I can't make it wear a bikini.

I suppose you think this horse just put on a bikini all by itself?

 

[LanceSaintPaul]

I suppose you think this horse just put on a bikini all by itself?

If that's the horse to beat I need to point out it's not dead yet.

 

[botmann]

GAS is real; gear acquiring syndrome.

 

[fliz]

I explain the general physical limitations of headphones and list several variables you can readily verify. You respond about uncertainty and variations on the theme of the wife hearing the differences from the kitchen. So I give a specific example with a variable you can find for nearly all existing products to again verify for yourself, THD. I use real values and calculation to illustrate my point in the most concrete way I can think of. And now you reply by saying that my specific example isn't everything... You don't say.

I can lead the horse to water, but I can't make it wear a bikini.

It's ironic that you would use that phrase when you're the one that's so convinced your measurements tell the whole story that you're not willing to do the simple task of listening for yourself.

"My theory invalidates your senses."

When we don't have sufficient theoretical knowledge to explain observable phenomenon, the ONLY thing left is anecdotes of the phenomenon being observed. If you want to dismiss those observations out of incredulity, absolutely nothing will change your mind.

In my original suggestion, I said $500 on headphones. This is not some trivial amount of money. It's more than enough to ensure you're not buying something inherently flawed because of manufacturing cost constraints, especially if you buy used, and especially if you buy something from an honest manufacturer that has a reputation of quality products from the plethora of existing reviews.

I bought a pair of Beyerdynamic T90's on here for $300. I've seen them on ebay for as little as $200. Negative reviews all complain about them being "bright" or "harsh". These are keywords you should look for in a set of cans to buy. Those are copes for "unforgiving of upstream flaws" which is exactly what you want if you are looking for something that will enable critical analysis of gear beyond manufacturer posted specs.

 

[castleofargh]

It's ironic that you would use that phrase when you're the one that's so convinced your measurements tell the whole story that you're not willing to do the simple task of listening for yourself.

"My theory invalidates your senses."

To quote Confucius: "I never said that s**t".

 

[fliz]

To quote Confucius: "I never said that s**t".

Don't be disingenuous.

What do you think I'm supposed to infer from the statement "variations on the theme of the wife hearing the differences from the kitchen."

Either observations are accepted in good faith, or they're dismissed.

 

[Leporello]

Don't be disingenuous.

What do you think I'm supposed to infer from the statement "variations on the theme of the wife hearing the differences from the kitchen."

Either observations are accepted in good faith, or they're dismissed.

Nice rhetorics, sure, but have you managed to gather evidence to support you assertions? So far your argumentation seems to consist of unverified anecdotes (which you try to elevate to status of "observations") and extraordinary claims supported only by other extraordinary claims - as is typical in high end audio.

 

[fliz]

Nice rhetorics, sure, but have you managed to gather evidence to support you assertions? So far your argumentation seems to consist of unverified anecdotes (which you try to elevate to status of "observations") and extraordinary claims supported only by other extraordinary claims - as is typical in high end audio.

Short of providing the opportunity to make the observations yourself, what do you expect?

What evidence can I possibly provide for an observation? I could take a photo of the northern lights. There is no equivalent in this context. This is why high end audio requires opportunities to showcase results and reviewers who have integrity. Unfortunately there's lots of corruption in the space. Will a review be published for a product that provides better performance at a better price than one of the publisher's sponsors? Of course not. Finding unbiased reviewers is a challenge, which is why reputation matters.

We're back to the point I've already made: If you want to dismiss observations out of incredulity, there's nothing left to do. There won't even be an investigation into the possible theoretical foundation for an observation if you can't even accept the veracity of the observation to begin with.

We're a LONG way off from a complete understanding of how or why this stuff works.

What's bizarre to me is that this entire discussion started because people balked at my answer to a hypothetical question about how to allocate $10k in a system. This is almost exactly how my funds have been allocated ($5k dac, $3k amp, $300 headphones). I've had a ton of gear over the years. I just sold a pair of Grado HP-2 for $1600 and kept the T90 that I paid $300 for. I didn't mention it earlier, but even my power cords are more expensive than my headphones. I've compared tons of gear firsthand and made decisions according to my senses. I recommend others do the same with an open mind. This whole hobby is a sensory experience afterall.

 

[theveterans]

There are some audiophiles out there building very exotic chains to maximize their JAR600 or HD800 listening experience as those two headphones also have infinite scalability

 

[Leporello]

There are some audiophiles out there building very exotic chains to maximize their JAR600 or HD800 listening experience as those two headphones also have infinite scalability

I am somewhat skeptical about the particular scalability of certain headphones. Back in the day it was the H600, now something else. Unfortunately there is very little reason to believe in the scalability myth because acoustic transducers will always be the weakest link in the chain. In the real world there is no way around this.

 

[castleofargh]

I am somewhat skeptical about the particular scalability of certain headphones. Back in the day it was the H600, now something else. Unfortunately there is very little reason to believe in the scalability myth because acoustic transducers will always be the weakest link in the chain. In the real world there is no way around this.

One doesn't exclude the other. A better DAC will be a better DAC, a better or just more adequate amp pairing can have various consequences, and affect some variables positively(objective for sure, subjective usually, subjective strictly because of sound, sometimes^_^).
But we get much bigger impact and potentially much bigger improvement when we care for the element with the least fidelity and consistency. That weak link, as we both said because it's an easily tested and testable fact, is the headphone.


@TurboDorkDon sorry about the useless scene(2 people talking past each other don't make a conversation). IMO the best advice given so far has been to get lots of music.
Second-best advice, IMO, was telling you to go try many rigs, anyway you can(meets are probably the best way to listen to all the new expensive FOTM audiophile devices from whatever country).
Because no matter how perfect and all knowing an audiophile want to imagine himself, we usually take a long time figuring out what we are really looking for. And we also inevitably end up with extra non audio priorities. If I can't make my mind between gears, the final choice will probably be about plugs, the volume knob, or if a LCD screen has a blue-ish backlight(I not a fan of green, and I very much dislike yellowish ones). I bought a camera that can turn on the LCD backlight at the top at night, and it breaks my heart anytime I use that yellow monster. It's trivial, but also not.
Related, but that's an even more personal opinion; if I was starting from scratch with money burning my pockets, I wouldn't get a rig listed by audiophiles. Not that Headfiers lack important insight and experience, or that the suggested rigs are crap, but simply because it's exactly what I did when I first got into the hobby, and I've regretted nearly all my initial purchases done that way(for audio but also non audio reasons). It's one anecdote, and maybe just bad luck, but I at least would not do that again. And that is why I find so important to go try a bunch of gear yourself.

 

[MindBreak]

One doesn't exclude the other. A better DAC will be a better DAC, a better or just more adequate amp pairing can have various consequences, and affect some variables positively(objective for sure, subjective usually, subjective strictly because of sound, sometimes^_^).
But we get much bigger impact and potentially much bigger improvement when we care for the element with the least fidelity and consistency. That weak link, as we both said because it's an easily tested and testable fact, is the headphone.


@TurboDorkDon sorry about the useless scene(2 people talking past each other don't make a conversation). IMO the best advice given so far has been to get lots of music.
Second-best advice, IMO, was telling you to go try many rigs, anyway you can(meets are probably the best way to listen to all the new expensive FOTM audiophile devices from whatever country).
Because no matter how perfect and all knowing an audiophile want to imagine himself, we usually take a long time figuring out what we are really looking for. And we also inevitably end up with extra non audio priorities. If I can't make my mind between gears, the final choice will probably be about plugs, the volume knob, or if a LCD screen has a blue-ish backlight(I not a fan of green, and I very much dislike yellowish ones). I bought a camera that can turn on the LCD backlight at the top at night, and it breaks my heart anytime I use that yellow monster. It's trivial, but also not.
Related, but that's an even more personal opinion; if I was starting from scratch with money burning my pockets, I wouldn't get a rig listed by audiophiles. Not that Headfiers lack important insight and experience, or that the suggested rigs are crap, but simply because it's exactly what I did when I first got into the hobby, and I've regretted nearly all my initial purchases done that way(for audio but also non audio reasons). It's one anecdote, and maybe just bad luck, but I at least would not do that again. And that is why I find so important to go try a bunch of gear yourself.

Good advice. In my case I started out with a Asgard 3 and Modi paired with a lower end variant of the HD5xx line of headphones. Much trial and error since then allowed me to figure out my preferences in Audio gear. Everyone has to come to their own conclusion regarding gear due to the individuals own ears being the last word in this hobby.