If you had $10k and were starting from scratch…

[fliz]

Try it again double blinded and volume-matched.

I understand the incredulity, because you've never had the opportunity to hear something like this first hand. When I say "not subtle" that's not some sort of exaggeration. These things make huge differences.

I get that there's lots of snake oil in this space. I've seen things that cost outrageous sums of money but when you look inside, the components are cheap garbage. That's not always the case though. There are people in this space doing honest work. I get how the bad apples spoil the whole bunch for you though. I can only say that I hope you get the opportunity to hear some genuinely good gear and what it can do.

 

[PinkyPowers]

As a reviewer, I invested in an audio switcher box. One of my favorite things, when evaluating source components, like DAPs and Amps, was plugging a good pair of headphones into the box and instantaneously switching between signals and hearing the soundstage snap from one size to another.

I volume match as best I can, and always use closed back full-size headphones, for as little variation or interference as possible.

There's absolutely no denying when you hear an instrument suddenly jump from one position to another.

So yes, different DACs and Amps sound different. Even when one device uses the same DAC chip as another, but simply implements it different, can change the sound.

If soundstage changes, you can bet your bottom dollar a multitude of other qualities have changed. But soundstage is by far the easiest to point to. It's quite simply unmistakable.

 

[fliz]

Here's a simple example: The es9036pro has multiple input pins for various power inputs to the different parts of the chip.

(iirc) there are 2 3.3v supplies and two 1.2v supplies. The 2 3.3v supplies can be supplied by the same regulated source but crosstalk is minimized if they each get their own independent regulator. (from the datasheet available on ess's own website). Some DAC manufactures will only use one. Others will spend the extra on two. Also, there's a HUGE range in the quality of voltage regulators. We're talking the difference between a buck or two or to over $50 a piece. A cost-no-object DAC built by someone honest, who doesn't just put cheap components in a pretty box will use the much better ones and they absolutely make a difference.

There's no way a $500 DAC can afford to use the best possible components. The regulators alone can cost over $200. Even a $3k DAC that's sold by a dealer that expects to make his cut couldn't affort to use the best possible components, and that's assuming a modest enclosure, too. If you want a fancy CNC milled enclosure that LOOKS like a high end piece of gear, there's no way even a $4k DAC can afford to use the best possible components. We haven't even begun to talk about output capacitors either. You want XLR outputs? You'll need 4 output caps. The absolute highest end ones can cost well into the hundreds of dollars a piece. Do they make a difference? You bet they do. Do you think a DAC that costs $4k from a dealer will use $600 worth of output caps? No way.

 

[TurboDorkDon]

I just want to thank everyone for participating - I am “Liking” all comments because I appreciate the community that I am being introduced to and the knowledge and opinion that each of you have. Like any group of “like minded” enthusiasts, there are differences but at the end of the day we all have a love and appreciation for the same hobby/lifestyle/etc.

Just wanted to say I appreciate each of you!

 

[Moose246]

I'll caveat all this with I'm not an audio or electronics expert, I just love listening to music. And probably mostly crappy music from a technical standpoint, at that (classic rock, 90's rock, metal, pop). No jazz, classical, symphony, or other recordings where I can imagine instrument placement or other technicalities would be noticeable and important.

I've run through quite a bit of gear and spent a fair amount. Here's my general advice, for what it's worth. All of this will be subjective, of course. This is how I'd rate the change and impact on the sound...ie, if you change these, it makes the most impact. And as a general rule, at least for me, diminishing returns is reached pretty quickly at the $1k range for any piece of gear. Meaning $10k isn't 10x better than $1k. But the difference between $1k and $500 can be pretty noticable (particulary with headphones).

1) This isn't a system component but it's where it starts....start with the best recorded version of the music. Best? That's an argument in and of itself, but find well mastered music that this or the Hoffman forums generally agree on. More relevant to classic rock since many versions exist versus say 90's rock. Listening to brickwalled music will sound bad on any system and be more painful with better gear.

2) Headphones. I've found headphones change the sound the most - and there's not a close second. Good will be dependent on the sound you like, and can vary. But $500+ is where I notice a difference. My HD650's sound good, but higher priced cans blow them away in terms of sound. Doesn't' have to be crazy - I have Dan Clark Aeon 2 Noirs that I love that retail at $700ish. I also have ZMF Verite Closed that retail at $2,500. Meze Empyreans about that, and HD800S between them. They all sound great and are different flavors; would be hard to label "best". Although the Verite's and Noirs get the most ear time. I've had Utopia's, Grado's, Fostex and wasn't a fan for my preferences.

3) Amp. I have a few amps and they make a difference in comparable sound. Of course tube and solid state are inherently different, but versions of each against each other can vary. Hard to say how much to spend because it's part of the larger chain, but I have a semi-expensive amp (GS-X Mini) and a cheap 'ol Schiit Magni. For tubes a Felik's Euforia AE and Schiit Vali 2. Are the more expensive ones worth 10x the cheap ones? Maybe. They sound different, probably better.

4) Likely to elicit some emotion with a DAC this far down the importance chain, but in my opinion and experience my two premium (but not stratosphere prices) DAC's sound essentially the same to my ears: RME ADI-2 and Yggdrasil OG A2 Unison. I've connected them to the same amps (one with XLR, one with RCA...either directly if the amp has both inputs or in the case of the Feliks RCAs via a switch) and toggled between the two. With the GS-X and THX AAA 789 it was indiscernable when toggled - like it never happened. Maybe I heard a slight difference with the Feliks, but I'm talking minimal and probably a product of my wanting to hear a difference. True A/B'ing there'd be no way for me to know which is which. I will say that I have a Mojo, and when I toggle that with the RME and Yggy there is a noticable difference. Better or worse is subjective, but this follows my theory of diminishing returns. The $1200 RME and $2Kish Yggy are indistinguishable from each other but noticeably different than a much cheaper product. Perhaps the RME direct would sound different than Yggy direct, but no way to know since there's no embedded Yggy amp. When pushed through an amp, no difference to me.

5) Cables. Maybe cables matter, maybe not. This coming from someone who has purchased two Nirvana Danacables (albeit a while ago when they were cheaper than they are now - yikes). I've purchased many midrange cables from Artic and they're steller. I'd say purchase a nicer one than comes stock but probably no need to go crazy. Same with interconnects (also have a set of Nirvana RCA's). Should be the last thing.

To summarize......mastering matters. I've found headphones drive the biggest changes in sound. Followed by amps. Followed by DACs. Then cables. Purely my experience. I've listened to many other DACs at CanJams and it's hard to truly form an opinion given it's on all different gear, but I was surprised how little difference there was to me even with the very high-end DACs (Dave, dcs, Holo's, etc).

To answer the original question (not including music costs)....
$3-4k: Headphones
$2-3k: Amp
$1-2k: DAC
The rest: cables

Honestly for my tastes and music preferences I could get by with substantially less than $10k and have an endgame setup. Spending that much would let me have options (multiple headphones; tube and SS amp, etc). Especially if buying used, which sans the HD800s and DCA's (and some cables and cheap Schiit amps) I've purchased everything second hand.

 

[botmann]

All cables are almost snake oil. Unless you live in a place with old wiring, the power cable is fine. I replaced the one for my DAC/amp only because it was too short for my needs. I went with the power cable for medical equipment. It was cheap and fire safety rated. And they need to not cause inference because of the medical equipment and alarms.

Internet connects depend on if it's analog or digital. Both, want a good build quality. HDMI, Toslink, and so forth, don't need to spend alot. Analog, has the added part of insultation for interference, but you still don't need to spend that much.

Speaker cables can be biggest sham of all. Other than build qaulity, only need something that is not microphronic. Is there difference between all copper, all silver, or some mix. Yes, but it's really not that big of difference.

Amps should be decent. It's what amplifying and driving the speaker. It needs to match well with the speaker. There's a whole rabbit hole between tube and solid state. There is a huge dimishing return in this area.

To me, spend the money on the one that that produces the sound....the headphone; technically the speaker. If it's crap, it'll be crap. Change the speaker, change the sound completely. Even here, the law of diminishing returns applies. You can get a top of the headphone, but it's not going to be night and day difference from a midtier headphone by the same company.

Since you're new(er), you should try to go to Headfi meetup, or set one up at a local library or something. Then you'll the chance to hear a variety gear from cheap, mid, and outright expensive. It's all sound good. The difference in all reality, will not be as large as you might think.

To me, spending $10K should get you multiple setups or gear. As you move forward, you'll figure if you need or want tubes, multiple headphones, flagship gear, and so on.

 

[botmann]

All cables are almost snake oil. Unless you live in a place with old wiring, the power cable is fine. I replaced the one for my DAC/amp only because it was too short for my needs. I went with the power cable for medical equipment. It was cheap and fire safety rated. And they need to not cause inference because of the medical equipment and alarms.

Internet connects depend on if it's analog or digital. Both, want a good build quality. HDMI, Toslink, and so forth, don't need to spend alot. Analog, has the added part of insultation for interference, but you still don't need to spend that much.

Speaker cables can be biggest sham of all. Other than build qaulity, only need something that is not microphronic. Is there difference between all copper, all silver, or some mix. Yes, but it's really not that big of difference.

Amps should be decent. It's what amplifying and driving the speaker. It needs to match well with the speaker. There's a whole rabbit hole between tube and solid state. There is a huge dimishing return in this area.

To me, spend the money on the one that that produces the sound....the headphone; technically the speaker. If it's crap, it'll be crap. Change the speaker, change the sound completely. Even here, the law of diminishing returns applies. You can get a top of the headphone, but it's not going to be night and day difference from a midtier headphone by the same company.

Since you're new(er), you should try to go to Headfi meetup, or set one up at a local library or something. Then you'll the chance to hear a variety gear from cheap, mid, and outright expensive. It's all sound good. The difference in all reality, will not be as large as you might think.

To me, spending $10K should get you multiple setups or gear. As you move forward, you'll figure if you need or want tubes, multiple headphones, flagship gear, and so on.

On a side note, it could be worse, you can be into home audio such as home theaters where there can be up sixteen speakers, speakers pairs costing over $100K, source players over $200K. If you have the money, you can have over million dollar setup. I've seen pictures of them for a stereo setup.

 

[Mightygrey]

This is a great question. I've been in the hobby for about ten years, and I've bought/sold/traded/acquired a ton of gear over the years. I've learned plenty about what's important to me:

- Comfort
- Tuning > technicalities
- Bright > dark
- Great user interface + connectivity (DACs)
- Dynamics > planars
- Sticking with what sounds good

...and also what isn't important to me:

- Cables + interconnects
- Balanced topologies
- Chasing "power" in amps
- Chasing what "should" sound better (i.e. more expensive things)
- Exotic/expensive DACs

I'm honestly pretty happy with what I have now, and would be happy to reacquire the following if I was starting from scratch:

Closed: Aeon 2 Noire
Open: HD600 + Grado GH1
DAC/amp: Oppo HA-1 + Bottlehead Crack with inbuilt Khadas Tone
DAP: Sony NW-A306
Portable source: Mojo 2
IEM: 64 Audio A4s

 

[ckhirnigs113]

Used Yggy A2: $1500
Used Meze Elite: $2500
Used Atrium Closed: $2000
New ZMF Aegis: $3500
iFi Zen Stream and all necessary cables (USB and interconnects): $500

Total: $10,000

Took me a while (almost 20 years!) to get to this wonderful combination of gear, but it covers all my needs and wants in a dedicated headphone setup. I have quite a bit more invested in tubes and fancy cables, but that stuff is less important and can always be added later.

 

[Leporello]

You might be in the wrong place entirely if you think that spending 10k on a system is a waste of money in the first place.

Then again, I might be in the right place precisely because of that.

FWIW, if you think this is "faith based" you likely just haven't heard what a high end system can do.

All snake oil is based on personal experience and testimonials.

It's honestly very fun showing this stuff to someone for the first time. A friend flew out recently and I showed him the difference a single power supply upgrade could make by letting him listen to it before and after the swap.

"It shouldn't make that much of a difference!", he exclaimed, and then proceeded to gush about all the improvements he heard. Before hearing he asked if we should do some sort of double blind. Afterwards, he conceded that wasn't necessary because the difference was not even remotely subtle.

The doubting friend and differences so big that no further investigation was needed are classic stuff.

 

[ThanatosVI]

. I've learned plenty about what's important to me:

That is one of the most Important lessons.
"Try stuff and figure out your own taste and what's important to you" is probably the best advice for someone new in the hobby

 

[castleofargh]

A good transducer can not overcome upstream flaws, and the transducers in $500 cans are not flawed unless the manufacturer is a complete scammer. Scammers don't survive in this business. A pair of resolving cans are relatively cheap. Quality transducers are comparatively cheap to produce and there are massive economies of scale. A pair of $500 cans driven by $9500 of top end upstream gear will sound infinitely better than the most expensive cans being driven by cheap gear.

I don't know how you arrived at those beliefs, but they're factually wrong.
Not flawed for a headphone, doesn't mean what it means for a DAC. It's more about people lowering their expectations for headphone. Think of a DAC with 0.01%THD, what a piece of crap, right? Imagine now a headphone with not 0.01 but just 0.1% THD in most of the audible range(doing almost inevitably worse at least in the low end so not strictly even achieving 0.1% in the audible range), people will treat it like it's a great piece of gear. It's the same type of harmonic distortions being measured but treated very differently. Not because they matter more upstream, but because we can easily get better than 0.01%, maybe even with a cheap USB dongle, while it's hard to get better in headphone. So we reevaluate the meaning of good.

That's probably how we end up with you being able to have those beliefs about headphones. And this hobby at large being so weird sometimes. With stuff 110dB below music treated as important, but getting the left channel only into the left ear for albums almost always mixed and mastered on speakers, somehow that isn't important to the general concept of fidelity, and it doesn't have to be discussed, or you're a headphone hater. Those weird double standards are so strange.

II would strongly suggest to you and anybody who cares about the real world, to look at measurements more and get, at the very least, some idea of the magnitudes involved before deciding what's likely to be more important than something else. That's how we can try to keep our feet on the ground.



Caveat:
Headphone measurements are heavily limited by placement, calibration, room noises, mics, and if we're serious, for the most demanding, even humidity and temperature. So some measurements of the very best headphones probably don't show how low distortions really go at all frequencies(Or how bad things will be with your system in your room, btw).
But usually we can still see from other measurements(those that don't get drowned by noise) and trends for above noise distortions, how good the headphone generally is. I always lament the lack of distortions measurements beyond THD(which doesn't correlate well with listening preferences), but I'm just one random consumer whining. The industry guys will do whatever they please, as always.

 

[botmann]

... The industry guys will do whatever they please, as always.

As long as people keep buying their wares, they have no reason not to.

 

[fliz]

Then again, I might be in the right place precisely because of that.


All snake oil is based on personal experience and testimonials.


The doubting friend and differences so big that no further investigation was needed are classic stuff.

You're welcome to visit and hear for yourself. The doubting skeptic who bases everything on how he thinks things *should* work who has never simply just listened to what's out there is classic stuff.

Do you think you're in the right place because you have some responsibility to counter signal people who are telling you, point blank, that they've experienced things that you have not?

I don't deny that there's much snake oil in this industry, but you seem to deny that it's not ALL snake oil. That's a bleak attitude and likely why you have yet to discover anything that undermines this blanket assumption.

 

[LanceSaintPaul]

Hero to the rescue to save us from ourselves....