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If using the line-out on an iPod bypasses the (preseumably poor quality) internal amp, then how can there be a quality difference between an iPod w/ lod and quality amp versus ....
the sound quality differ from any other digital player? And when you do bypass the iPod amp in favor of some boutique brand-name external amp, is the "flavor" of the sound influenced *only* by amp+headphones, or does the iPod still impart some quality? If it still does impart some quality, from whence is it derived, if not from the amp?
I have an iPod and I'm getting an amp (because I'm not thrilled with audio quality), but I'm wondering if I shouldn't switch to a different "audiophile" player (Cowon, Sony, Hifi, etc) before I'm too invested in Mac stuff ... but I'm just having a hard time understanding how these players can have different sound quality even when the internal amp is bypassed ...
the sound quality differ from any other digital player? And when you do bypass the iPod amp in favor of some boutique brand-name external amp, is the "flavor" of the sound influenced *only* by amp+headphones, or does the iPod still impart some quality? If it still does impart some quality, from whence is it derived, if not from the amp?
I have an iPod and I'm getting an amp (because I'm not thrilled with audio quality), but I'm wondering if I shouldn't switch to a different "audiophile" player (Cowon, Sony, Hifi, etc) before I'm too invested in Mac stuff ... but I'm just having a hard time understanding how these players can have different sound quality even when the internal amp is bypassed ...
Things that affect sound quality: the music file you're playing, DAC, amplifier, headphones.
Before we go on, every players has a DAC and an amplifier in them, but not necessarily of high quality. Now, you bypass ipod's amplifier with LOD or line-out dock that carries the processed data from the DAC directly to the external amplifier, without having it amplified by the amplifier in the ipod. This way, a superior amplification of the signal is done. This also means that different external amplifiers would "flavor" the sound differently.
Where the more expensive audiophile players come in is the quality of the DAC they have. I don't know whether Cowon and Sony have high quality DACs implemented there, but Hifiman players contain DACs that are just as good as regular external-DACs used in computer setups. In fact, you can use some of the Hifiman players as external DACs in a computer setup because of their high quality DAC.
I have 2 Cowon players, and the reason why Cowon products are favored in this forum, among other things, is the variety of tweaks one can do such as reverb effect, 3D surround, BBE technology, as well as 30-something EQ presets.
Thanks for the reply! Very, very helpful!
So the DAC seems to be the main limiting factor of the iPod once the amp is out of the equation ... hmmmmmm ....
Do you know if the Hifiman benefits from an external amp? If not, then it seems like I should just save $100 and buy the Hifiman. It's just hard to believe that the Hifiman at $260 is better than iPod+amp at $500+!!!
Or, would it be worth it to save the TTVJ Slim, sell the iPod and get the Hifiman?
This is like a really expensive puzzle, LOL ...
Before we go any further, there's more than just this checklist:
music file you're playing, DAC, amplifier, headphones.
You also need to factor the cable and interconnects into the equation.
In addition, if you are using a record player, the DAC is not in the equation.
I used to be a big cable skeptic but after trying different cables out there is a noticeable difference.
Also if you're using an analogue source as mentioned there is no DAC.
Personally I say stick with your iPod if you are heavily invested into Apple stuff. There is a diff in SQ between iPods, Cowons, etc. but frankly I don't think the small difference in SQ is worth that much. The DAC isn't that significant in a portable setup, the headphone matters far more. Unless you're an absolute extremist/enthusiast (and at this point, I know you're not) other qualities weigh into the equation as well, and they may be things you may not be willing to compromise like convenience, cable compatibility, interface, etc.
I've been a long term iPod user as well after moving from Creative Muvos. I felt the Muvos sounded better than the then 5G iPod I got, but the iPod was so much more convenient at the time. After a while iPod SQ improved, but were no match for Cowons and Walkmans and HiFimans... mostly due to the much better equalizers and effect settings on tehse players. The DAC's quality was not that significant, the amp made more of a diff to me, but still I eventually got a Cowon J3 because the sound was better.
Today, my J3 gathers dust for the most part while I still regularly use my Nano 6G. The Nano is just more convenient to use. There is a difference in SQ and driving power but the Nano's sound is not bad at all, it's a much improved iPod, and when I'm on the go I don't even remember what the J3 sounds like, I need to sit back, relax and listen to really appreciate the difference.
So if you're invested in Apple and are used to iPods etc. I really don't see any need to move to a different brand. It's just a waste of money and effort IMO... but then again you are on Head-Fi so that means you have disposable money and disposable effort to spare and the willingness to become an extreme enthusiast. I think.
Just my two cents.
PS -- the HifiMan is not "better" than an iPod and amp. If I had to describe it, the HiFiMans sound a bit better than the iPods, but have a lousy interface and are bug-strewn like hell. I don't really like to call it a portable player, more like a "desktop-quality DAC in a pocket with a really lousy interface that you will kill yourself to be free of and go back to a clickwheel or IOS Touch interface."
If you really want to go down this dark road, get an iMod instead, yeah it's a lot more expensive but it's got quality DAC and interconnects inside and you just hook it up to your amp of choice. Again I don't really consider this a portable setup, unless you are the type that enjoys having a a bulge in your pant pocket the size of 2-3 decks of playing cards (or more depending on the size of your amp). But at least you get the typical iPod interface (unless it was rock-boxed -- high possibility) and not the joke that is an excuse for an interface on the HiFiMan.
You know what... let me apologize for that, the HiFi Man's interface isn't that bad, at least nota s bad as I made it sound. I was just thinking of the SFlo which had a truly horrid interface. The HiFi Men are not quite that bad... but still bad. Again really, on this site our goal generally is to get better sound but sometimes the compromise is to let go of some things that make life easier... like a decent interface. Be careful with these "audiophile players" because while they please enthusiasts with their awesome sound, most generally lose big time on usability. And in many situations, usability is far more important than sound quality.
I kinda lost interest when Pure released the i20. Bypass the iPod DAC, so long the Holy Grail of portable audio, for 99 USD. Want to do it portably, totally off the grid ? OK, thats going to cost you more, but its still doable without having to cart a stack of gear in a backpack. As soon as Apple started opening up the license to all and sundry, it lost its lustre - I'll just stick with my 6G Nano and cheapie Fiio LOD.
First, I'm *only* listening to music on the go, I have no home set up. Just the way it is for now, not ideal I realize. So I am really trying to get the most out of my portable set up.
Cables are a road I will have to wait to return to. I blew all my money (and then some) on the TTVJ amp. Luckily there is a return policy, so if it doesn't do the trick I'm not stuck with a $350 paper weight. Eventually, when I save up, I'd love to get some nice cables but I can hardly believe I spent $350 on a pocket amp, there is NO WAY I can justify $100 for a 4 inch cable, LOL ... I'll have to wait a year to make that leap ... but I agree that it makes a difference.
I'm definitely NOT an extremist. I have always used Mac's for everything, and while I hate what they have become (Microsoft), I am very used to their superb usability. You are right for underscoring the importance of that. I think the clunky looking interface of the HM601 probably would drive me crazy. Not to mention I don't know what I would do without iTunes <--- hate admitting this but it's true.
No desire to become too crazy about this, just know I like great sounding music and I'm willing to go out of my way (to an extent) to make that happen.
No idea what an iMod is, but sounds interesting. If it's expensive I don't even want to know right now, LOL ... but I'll look into it at some point. I think I will stick with my iPod and hopefully make it work. I'm also stuck with over ear cans because I can't stand in ear stuff, just too distracting. I'm also stuck with closed because of my need for portability. I guess my system is compromised from the beginning. But I'm hoping to, eventually, get some open air phones, so I'd like a system that could accommodate such an upgrade in the future.
What are your thoughts on portable amps, specifically the TTVJ Slim? My Shure 840's just sound too weak when plugged into the iPod ... when I tried them out at the music store, hooked up to all the best stuff, they sounded AMAZING! But the bass is missing from the iPod and the treble is often very shrill. I'm hoping the amp will solve these issues. I've read the 840's *can* run without amplification but that they do benefit from some if given the chance ...
Yeah, unfortunately I need my music to be portable. I dont mind bulky (ipod plus reasonably sized amp plus cables) but needs to be free to roam!
I'm also using a Fiio LOD that I got from Amazon ... I went completely overboard with the TTVJ. Do you think it's a worth while investment, or are the improvements likely to be of the super marginal variety? I'm hoping for pretty huge gains in bass, power, clarity, and mellowing of the high end. If the difference is one that I have to strain to notice I'll probably have to return it. For $350 I expect to be impressed ...
First of all, CABLES LAST. There are other things you can improve other than the cables at this point, especially when your headphone itself didn't cost too much over 100 dollars. Next logical step would be a DAC to use on a computer setup, and you can use it with TTVJ. If you want to go portable all the way, you could choose Cypher Labs AlgoRhythm, which allows you to use a different DAC for ipod.
Also, for reviews on TTVJ, check out headfonia.com
They recently did a 12 portable amp shootout, including the TTVJ.
The answer to your question is: yes it is on the obvious side. I get the feeling that you haven't done enough homework or reading on this forum before you jump on the amp bandwagon. If you are an ipod user, there are mountains of information about how to get the most sound quality out of an ipod setup. Things like file format, differences in various generations of ipods, the different kind of Dac used in them, LOD, what is Imod, differences in portable amps, what is your own personal preferences in music and how to find amp and/or Dac to match your preference, how to upgrade components and in what order, do you have the right headphone for the type of music that you want etc.
From the title of your post, you are probably not aware that an amp is only one of twenty to thirty components (and may be more) that will affect the final outcome of sound that you hear in a portable setup. But we all have to start somewhere, so I am not faulting you for asking, but you could have read more to get some basic foundation. But if you don't care that much about audiophile sound in portable setup, then just get a 16g Nano 6 gen and be done with.
I definitely agree with the cables last part. I'd be a fool to say DAC isn't that important and say cables are. I bought a roll of Cardas cable and spent only about $40 for an 8 foot roll, and then got some Neutrik plugs for twenty five cents each. Doesn't have to be $100 for a two inch strip, honestly that's way too extravagant, the price gouging in our hobby is ridiculous, but you can get around it with some smart buying.
Now second, you shouldn't worry about not having a "home setup." The TTVJ you have is amazing. I have not heard it personally but I've had experience with TTVJ and I am sure the setup is not bad. You should remember that your amp is also a DAC, it has a good Burrbrown DAC which you can plug into your Mac, and you have a good transportable home setup. You don't need to go crazy over your portable DAP because if you need a higher quality playing experience you have your Mac and your TTVJ.
Then on the go you can go with your iPod and LOD into the TTVJ.
I heard the TTVJ Portable Millete Hybrid and it was AMAZING. Absolutely the best portable amp I had heard. But I think I am partial to tubes. I don't know how great the Slim is but I am sure it is also a great-sounding amp and DAC. I heard it is even better than the Hybrid. I tihnk your investment there is well worth the $350 bones you dropped.
As for what I think about portable amps, personally I didn't go crazy over them. I have gone through a whole gamut of portable amps from the Mini3 to P51 Mustang, and you know what? I ended up with a FiiO E7. The Mustang sounded great but I felt I wasn't getting my money's worth out of it. I loved the sound but didn't love the price tag, but more importantly I didn't like how limited it was compared to some of the other portables I had like the GoVibe Petite, which was a DAC/Amp combo not unlike your TTVJ Slim. It had an internal rechargeable battery that could be charged via USB (whether out of your computer or a wall charger) that gave it instant usability, then it had a USB DAC that let me bypass by iPod and J3 when I had a laptop on the go, two headphone outs for fun and the sound wasn't half bad, especially when I had bass boost options. Compare this to the Mustang, which while a totally different class of product altogether and sounded amazing didn't have half the amenities, nay didn't have a fourth the amenities of the E7, and heck it cost more than four times more. I really couldn't justify keeping it no matter how great it sounded.
Your TTVJ Slim has almost the same class of usability as the E7, it's more expensive but I am sure it sounds awesome. I personally got out of the portable amp business already, they sound great but I am not a fan of such a big setup for portable and ended up just using my Nano as is, or my J3. I still have the E7 for when I need it, but generally the E7 is used more with the E9 at home, when I amp I rather go all the way with a desktop setup. I also ended up getting a tube hybrid desktop, the MP5, because I was so impressed with the Millete Hybrid. So yeah, I ended up getting a decent mid-fi desktop setup which I am reasonably happy with, and will get into tube-rolling the hybrid amp eventually.
As for the SRH-840, yeah it works well without amping but as with most cans they do sound significantly better amped. I am not a big fan of the SRH-840, actually not a big fan of Shure in general, the only exception being the SRH750 DJ which I thought sounded amazing, if not for its fatally flawed ergonomics and headband design and poor build quality.
I don't have extensive experience with the 840, but bass is usually the first thing to go without proper amping. I have the XB700 and the K701, both of which have bass that improves geometrically when properly amped. The 840 is much the same; even the portable M50 which is vaunted for its ability to run without amping, lacked definition in its bsas when not amped correctly out of a good desktop amp. The 840 likewise lost a lot of the oomph in its bass without an amp, and actually I don't like the 840 unamped at all. Actually the only Shure headphone I liked unamped are the 750 and, get this, the 240. And actually, I prefer the SRH240 to the 440 or the 840. Go figure. There's just something about the 840 I don't like. I don't want to go into detail right now but after trying out all 3 I actually liked the 240 best. But I say the 750 is best out of all of them in terms of SQ (not necessarily ergonomics).
Also, being portable doesn't necessarily mean you have to limit yourself to closed cans. I have a PX100-II which is open and I use it portably, and I find it is amazing. It's really cheap, too. I do also have a closed portable can when I really need the isolation, though. Ok I have two closed portables. But anyway. BTW I should warn you that I am a "Team Bass" guy so that colors my perceptions of gear a lot, just so you are aware.
Jalo - thanks for the response! Yeah, I can see now that it probably was an obvious question, but I'm getting so much helpful feedback for which I am grateful!
I have done *some* homework, LOL ... I just didn't want to list all the things I already knew. I do know about differences in file formats (I thought this was kind of assumed), and I know that the first gen shuffle, along with a few other iPod's have the Wolfson sound card and I know that neither of mine have it, although that would be a pretty easy fix!
If you read my posts you would know that I chose the TTVJ very specifically because from what I understand it should provide the balance I'm looking for. My iPod/SH 840 combo is light on bass, somewhat "clinical" and a tad bright. So instead of choosing the HS Arrow amp, which would have been cheaper and better looking, I chose the TTVJ because the Arrow has also been described as "clinical", and colorless (not a bad thing, I realize) but I do like a little color in my music.
I also spent about a week deciding on the Shure's. It came down to the Shures, AT m50's, and Beyerdynamic dt770, all of which seemed very comparable and highly regarded on this site. I wasn't able to listen to the m50's, but I did compare the 840's and 770's in a music store and really preferred the 840's. The tipping factor for the Shure's was comfort, which is one of the most important for me and I've read the m50's are not terribly comfortable.
Would you mind elaborating a little on the 20 or 30 *components* that influence sound quality? Are you talking about different aspects within, say, the DAC, or different components used in the amp that differentiates it from other amps? Is it necessary to know about each of these components to make an informed decision? Don't most people worry about 1) headphones, 2) player, 3) amp/DAC, 4) file quality, 5) cables ... I don't see too many people on here talking about the technical minutiae of the DAC!
So, I may not know quite as much as some (hence the question!), I have done enough homework to bring me to the question I had. If there are a list of questions that seemed to get asked over and over, maybe someone should make some stickies or some FAQ post, make it really obvious, and then direct people to it. I'm happy to do the reading for myself but scouring the archives for hours to answer a simple question that someone who knows could answer in 2 minutes, well it's obvious really ...
Mochan: thanks again! I have to add, though, that I didn't get the DAC-version of the TTVJ Slim (that version is $450!!) ... I could barely summon the stupidity to spend $350. Lot's of your praise for the amp seems to hinge on the DAC, but would you still recommend the amp alone? I've read that the Slim sounds similar to the tube hybrid, which is what drew me to the Slim in the first place. I'm super excited to hear what it does to my setup!
As for the Shure's I really REALLY liked them when I tried them at the music store, I'm not a total bass head but I do like my bass to have depth and impact and the 840's had that, as well as amazing clarity and articulation (for a $150 headphone, of course). I tried the dt770's, and they definitely had more bass but I guess I would describe the mids as being recessed (still learning the language), didn't have the same detail as the 840's, nor the same mid-bass punch the 840's had. But I'm pretty underwhelmed with the 840's unamped, as you can tell from my post, LOL ... so yeah, hoping that the TTVJ brings them to life a bit. If the difference is not profound then I'll likely keep the amp and try new headphones. The reason for this is that ultimately, when I finish school and start making an actual income, I'd like to get some nice open back headphones and these tend to need amplification, so the TTVJ seems like a good investment.
....a few other iPod's have the Wolfson sound card and I know that neither of mine have it, although that would be a pretty easy fix!
My iPod/SH 840 combo is light on bass, somewhat "clinical" and a tad bright. So instead of choosing the HS Arrow amp, which would have been cheaper and better looking,
Would you mind elaborating a little on the 20 or 30 *components* that influence sound quality? Are you talking about different aspects within, say, the DAC, or different components used in the amp that differentiates it from other amps? Is it necessary to know about each of these components to make an informed decision? Don't most people worry about 1) headphones, 2) player, 3) amp/DAC, 4) file quality, 5) cables ... I don't see too many people on here talking about the technical minutiae of the DAC!
Well first of all, the Wolfson is a Dac chip not a sound card. There is no sound card in the ipod. You said it is a easy fix, I like to know how are you going to change the Dac in the ipod to the Wolfson chip? I have not heard the Sh 840 so I cannot comment on the sound character of the 840. But ipod in general to my experience is neither clinical nor bright, so if your combo is clinical and bright, then it may come from the SH 840. Many amps have that warm property with emphasis in the bass area. For instance, the RSA house sound all have that characteristic. But then it may not because of the ipod/sh840 combo, the "light on bass, somewhat clinical and a tad bright" may be a result of poor amplification from the ipod driving the 840. If the amplify in the ipod cannot drive the 840 sufficiently, first thing to go is the bass and then it may appear bright because of a loss of control and body in the sound. So you may be mislead to think you need a warm amp when in fact a good amp may be sufficient to bring the sound to your liking.
When I said 20 to 30 components I really mean factors that can affect the outcome of sound. However, it all depends on how extreme a person gets. I cannot write five to ten pages here about these factors, but within the ipod portable domain, if you want good sound, get music with good recordings (i.e different types of cds, xrcds etc), use apple lossless format or flac (you'll be amaze how many headfiers still use mp3), if you are not going to bypass the internal Dac with devices like the Solo, then find the right ipod to use, at present, I think the nano 6g has the best sound. Find a good LOD to by pass the internal amp of the ipod. Then find a headphone that matches your music preference before paying attention to physical comfort. Not that the physical comfort is not important, but If you don't like the sound, it does not matter if it is comfortable or not, you won't use it. I really don't think taking an audition in a store will give you an idea what a headphone sound like. First of all, you most likely is not using your own system/gear in your audition, and you may not be listening to your own music that you are familiar with, and you are not going to know in long listening session whether there is listener fatigue in your pair of phones, etc. Frequently, without using a headphone in different systems and setups, you may not know the real character of a pair of headphone. Once you find the headphone that you like, the next component is the Dac/amp depending on your situation. if you are not going to bypass the Dac, then all you need is to find the right amp. But without knowing the character of your phones, it's hard to find the right amp with the right sound character. For instance, within you budget of $350.00, you can buy a balance amp or at least a nice used one (RSA Protector, ibassa PB1, PB2 etc), they will give you some good sound stage and power. The ttvj slim is a good amp but it is only one of a couple dozen of good amps released this last years. Then you have the types of cables/lod to deal with which some headfiers do not believe in. If you are not into portable sound or are not enthuse by it, the process can be tedious. But the process can be fun. It took me two three years to get to where I like it. I tried over a dozen amp, dac, cable, iems/phones. So good luck to your search. My advise to you for reading more is so you won't spend a lot of waisted money in this hobby.
I shouldnt read these threads, much less post - my savings plan tends to get shot out of a cannon ...
Unlike Mochan, I consider a portable amp that does nothing beyond amplification to be ideal, as I have a dedicated USB DAC and I'm happy with the line-out on my 6G Nano. Just when I had narrowed my portable choice to the TTVJ Slim, I am increasingly reading good things about the Mustang (an oldamp by Head-Fi standards) and the Hornet (positively ancient by HF standards, but the bass is reportedly very good). I'm going to keep saving, as a portable amp isnt the only thing on my hitlist and the D4 will chug along for a while yet, but its interesting to see such 'old' technology still gets good reviews on a forum where its often all about the latest FOTM gear.
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