If it’s loud enough it’s good enough? (Headphone amps)

[cplus44]

I’m really wondering about this. Reason being currently I only have a $80 portable fiio k17 alphen 2 from 2017 I bought back in 2018 used for $80 and have been using it with my sundara and it’s great but recently I’ve been wanting an abyss Diana MR. and according to specs it would definitely get it loud. But would it actually bring out its full potential? I would be extremely thrilled if that’s the case because some of the amps I see recommended to pair with it are another few thousand but I have this FOMO when I get it that I’ll listen to it on my fiio and wonder “but what if this amp…” I don’t know I’m on the fence on this because it just seems so ridiculous to get a headphone that price and power it on a portable $80 amp from 2017.

 

[Ruben123]

Just enjoy your cans. I guess if you're not at >90% of your amp's max volume you're good

 

[fidgeraldo]

I don’t know I’m on the fence on this because it just seems so ridiculous to get a headphone that price and power it on a portable $80 amp from 2017.

Probably it would be.
Perhaps something like this would be a great upgrade and for not that much money.
DROP + XDUOO TA-84 OTL TUBE AMP/DAC

Folks are happy with it.

Cheers!

 

[Born2Cuddle]

I’m really wondering about this. Reason being currently I only have a $80 portable fiio k17 alphen 2 from 2017 I bought back in 2018 used for $80 and have been using it with my sundara and it’s great but recently I’ve been wanting an abyss Diana MR. and according to specs it would definitely get it loud. But would it actually bring out its full potential? I would be extremely thrilled if that’s the case because some of the amps I see recommended to pair with it are another few thousand but I have this FOMO when I get it that I’ll listen to it on my fiio and wonder “but what if this amp…” I don’t know I’m on the fence on this because it just seems so ridiculous to get a headphone that price and power it on a portable $80 amp from 2017.

It has been my experience that magnetic planar headphones (3 different pairs, though no Sundara or Abyss) sound like dog poop on a stick with a tube amp (Darkvoice 336SE) designed for high impedance headphones.

https://drop.com/buy/dark-voice-366se/talk/2050516

 

[gregorio]

I’m really wondering about this.

As a general rule of thumb ”yes”, although there can be some exceptions/caveats. “Loud enough” indicates the amp has enough power to drive the headphone, provided as @Ruben123 suggested, you don’t have to drive the amp too near max to achieve “loud enough”. Typically as long as you’re at <90% the amp’s noise/distortion will be below audibility, although that might require <70% in some cases, particularly tube amps, so that might be a better percentage to remain below. Also, a very low output power setting on the amp can sometimes cause issues, such as a channel imbalance. Another potential caveat is impedance, the amp should generally have impedance very roughly around 8 (or more) times lower than the HPs impedance and this can occasionally be difficult to achieve if your HPs/IEMs have a very low/very variable impedance curve. The only real exception to any of the above is tube amps, some of which are very clean but some have audible distortion even at nominal output levels.

G

 

[Lindholdt]

It has been my experience that magnetic planar headphones (3 different pairs, though no Sundara or Abyss) sound like dog poop on a stick with a tube amp (Darkvoice 336SE) designed for high impedance headphones.

https://drop.com/buy/dark-voice-366se/talk/2050516

Are you able to share a bit more details on how you found the sound to be bad, rather than " dog poop on a stick"?
I'm actually interested as I might give an OTL a go with my planar's.

 

[Redcarmoose]

@cplus44,
I have that same amplifier. Though it is called the E17K Alpen 2. You forgot the “E”.

I would think that it may not have quite enough deep bass texture. Just a guess? Meaning try an old Schiit Asgard one, and see how the bass transients clean up in relation to the Alpen 2. Don’t go by specifications as there is more to it than that. Just try different amps and explore their signatures. Though I love the Alpen 2 for IEMs, I will never sell it.

Loud enough, doesn’t mean bass control.

 

[castleofargh]

The issue of OTL is a typically high impedance output. So a 30ohm headphone like OP's is rarely a good idea.
But it's like anything else, it's going to make sound, and it will not explode, so of course some audiophile is thinking that it's a better sound somewhere, and he has the right to think so.
If nominal use is in mind, I would advise against OTL+low impedance headphone.

But would it actually bring out its full potential?

Could you get better objective performances? Sure.
Could you get a different sound? Of course.
But you just dug your own rabbit hole with that sentence. What could it even mean? Who in the history of the planet ever reached the full potential of any audio setup? Did you put it all in a Faraday cage? Do you produce your own energy off the grid, exclusively for the playback system? Do you put everything in liquid nitrogen to lower one source of noise? No, because at some point we all draw a line and call everything beyond it, overkill. Or maybe we'll even think it's crazy. If you work things out with the mindset of achieving "full potential", you will never stop purchasing stuff to fix anything that isn't perfect, so... in an analogue environment, everything. And the fix, even if better, won't be perfect either because that doesn't exist. And that's realistically, wait until paranoia starts sneaking in anytime you read some new review or some new commercial nonsense about a problem some clever guy invented just for the sake of claiming to be the only one to fix it.

With that said, I encourage you to go to any audio meeting you can (from big stuff to having a beer with a fellow member in your area), or audio shows, or stores with your own headphone, so you can try many things and figure out where you stand, what you might need, and just what your own tastes are. More often than not, I found that it reassured me about my own gear, and on occasion I did come across something that really sounded amazing (and admittedly often cost an arm, so I didn't get one). But there is no better cure for your FOMO. And of course, I don't know what the return policies are where you live, but you can always consider getting the thing that makes your eyes sparkle, try it and send it back one or 2 days later if it does nothing special and isn't worth the money in your opinion. You "only" lose some delivery costs and gain experience.

 

[fidgeraldo]

I'm actually interested as I might give an OTL a go with my planar's.

I absolutely love the combination tube amp with planar headphones.
I can't say anything about every planar and tube amp that exists, but I can say that the D8000 with a tube amp sounds like nirvana (not the band ).
Monoprice Monolith M1060C as well.

Cheers!

 

[monf3307]

I absolutely love the combination tube amp with planar headphones.
I can't say anything about every planar and tube amp that exists, but I can say that the D8000 with a tube amp sounds like nirvana (not the band ).
Monoprice Monolith M1060C as well.

Cheers!

Wow, would not have thought to try that. My tubes stick to high-ohm dynamic drivers, but I am open to more!

BTW more great info about amps and power recently - https://www.head-fi.org/posts/17903752/

 

[Lindholdt]

I absolutely love the combination tube amp with planar headphones.
I can't say anything about every planar and tube amp that exists, but I can say that the D8000 with a tube amp sounds like nirvana (not the band ).
Monoprice Monolith M1060C as well.

Cheers!

I agree, I use my HE1000's with a tube amplifier most of the time. But it's and OTC amp, which is supposed to handle lower impedance headphones better, as far as I know/have been told.
I'm interested in hearing what downsides one should expect in sound quality, when running planar's on OTL tube amps.
Since @Born2Cuddle seems to have first hand experience with this, I was curious to what specific parts of the sound got worse, in his experience.

 

[fidgeraldo]

I agree, I use my HE1000's with a tube amplifier most of the time. But it's and OTC amp, which is supposed to handle lower impedance headphones better, as far as I know/have been told.

That's fair. But it's often the case when people crap about something and don't explain what they mean or give an alternative. That would be more helpful. When I posted DROP XDUOO, I had in mind a good alternative for OP. My amp has three different settings for matching impedance, and it works great with low or high-impedance headphones.

Perhaps I didn't read enough about that DROP; I will look again what they say.

Cheers!

 

[fidgeraldo]

"To hit that sweet spot with any set of headphones (or powered speakers),
the TA-84 is also equipped with an ultra-precise stepped potentiometer for volume control,
plus a gain switch to further control the output level. On Drop, and on your desk—it’s tube time. Finally."

I don't see they mentioned it's made only for high impedance headphones.

 

[Lindholdt]

That's fair. But it's often the case when people crap about something and don't explain what they mean or give an alternative. That would be more helpful. When I posted DROP XDUOO, I had in mind a good alternative for OP. My amp has three different settings for matching impedance, and it works great with low or high-impedance headphones.

Perhaps I didn't read enough about that DROP; I will look again what they say.

Cheers!

Yes some more constructive and specific feedback on the issues would be great, for us trying to learn
Regarding the TA-84, the product details have this information:
"Recommended headphone impedance: 100 ohms – 600 ohms (amp is not well suited for planar magnetic headphones and low impedance headphones due to OTL topology)"

So it's the typical, marketing bs first, then the actual details are I'm the spec sheet, hidden away
You generally want OTC tube amps for lower impedance stuff like most planar's.
I'm just curious to what happens with the sound of you use low impedance cans on OTL anyway.

 

[castleofargh]

Yes some more constructive and specific feedback on the issues would be great, for us trying to learn
Regarding the TA-84, the product details have this information:
"Recommended headphone impedance: 100 ohms – 600 ohms (amp is not well suited for planar magnetic headphones and low impedance headphones due to OTL topology)"

So it's the typical, marketing bs first, then the actual details are I'm the spec sheet, hidden away
You generally want OTC tube amps for lower impedance stuff like most planar's.
I'm just curious to what happens with the sound of you use low impedance cans on OTL anyway.

It's only a general rule of thumb thing. Because ultimately different amps will have different designs and limitations or impacts into a given load.
As with just about any amp, a lower impedance load (headphone) tends to make measurements worse. How much worse depends, and usually if you see a lower limit for the load in the specs, it's because something considered not great is going on below that impedance value. Could be nothing much, could be that the amp gets hot, could be distortions or crosstalk figures getting bad enough that it's better to avoid the situation(on the drop link they give 65dB crosstalk, if it's unloaded, it might get real bad into 30 ohm? IDK), or it could simply be a matter of bass roll off.
How much, and if it sounds nice to some listeners, is a case by case question. And trying, might be what someone needs to come to term with such questions.

I remember a few OTL amps having in the neighborhood of 100ohm at the output. If OP's headphone is 30ohm, forget impedance bridging(the old 1/8th or lower, rule of thumb), we don't even approach impedance matching(same value on both sides). That's just not something desirable. We want the load to limit the current, not the amp.


I know close to nothing about all this when it comes to details, I just hang in there with a little experience and some superficial electrical memories from when I still had beautiful blond hair, so maybe some of the things I regurgitate are false or not a general case. You'll have to go ask designers or the active DIY guys for particular designs, components, and what would happen with a given load and "normal" listening level.