[cplus44]

I have a pair of sundaras and when I got them they were extremely bright, lifeless and harsh I could barely listen to them I had my girlfriend listen to them (she’s not really into the whole audio stuff just uses AirPods) and she also said bluntly “they sound bad” but after “burn in” they sounded amazing to me and my girlfriend who never heard them again until two weeks later when I asked her to try them again (because I was really curious about this whole burn in thing) said the same thing, they sounded great now.

Fast forward back in February I had a friend come over and I asked if he wanted to try my Sundaras. He’s like my girlfriend as in he’s not really into the whole audio gear stuff, also has AirPods like my girlfriend and some gaming headset he uses when gaming. He put them on and was blown away by them even saying “WOW!” After one song in particular (Mother by Danzig if anyone wants to know).

How come he didn’t experience the brain burn in of my Sundaras and went directly into being blown away? How come my girlfriend who listened to my Sundaras once in the beginning for two minutes and said they were “bad” then two weeks later say they were “great”. She had two minutes of experience with them in the beginning no brain burn in for two weeks and suddenly they sounded great to her.

How can this be the gear not burning in and that it’s brain burn in?

 

[taffy2207]

There's far too many variables to narrow it down to just 'burn in'. There's no one size fits all approach when listening to Cans. Otherwise we'd all be listening to the same set of Cans

We all have personal preferences. We have different tastes in Music, different hearing abilities, fit etc.

One thing that's become clear to me is that your Brain gets used to headphones, 'Brain burn in' if you will. Unless they're just plain awful.

Mood is another thing, I put on my AKGs when I want to listen to something Acoustic or mellow, My 1Mores when I want to listen to something heavy or exciting. I have a pair of old Sennheiser earphones for convenience / Commuting.

Not very scientific (sorry Greg ) , more anecdotal, just one mans thoughts.

 

[iamoneagain]

I wonder this too. I got the Expanse last week and it sounded terrible on very first listen. After a few hours it sounded much better. I had my wife try them after they had burned in for over 20 hours and she thought they sounded great. No adjustment period for her.

 

[gregorio]

How can this be the gear not burning in and that it’s brain burn in?

Firstly, you appear to have fallen into the old “correlation = causation” trap. This is a very common fallacy where observations appear to correlate and one therefore assumes a causation. A very obvious and illustrative example: As the consumption of ice-cream increases, the number of people who die from drowning increases. Therefore, eating ice-cream causes drowning.

Secondly, you’re assuming that brain burn-in and other perceptual errors are exactly the same in everyone. This is simply not the case, perceptual errors or differences in perception can vary, even dramatically from person to person.

Thirdly, the human brain is extremely adept at taking very subtle clues and incorporating them into a perception. This fact accounts for a vast array of potential variables you are not accounting for. For example, how you phrased the request/question to your girlfriend and friend could easily influence their perception. Even if you phased the request/question identically, a tiny difference in inflection, body language or facial expression will commonly affect the subsequent perception. This is why single blind tests are not considered scientifically valid, only double blind tests are, where neither the subject nor the person making the request/question know what is being tested and therefore the tester cannot inadvertently give subliminal clues to the testee.

None of the above proves that it was brain burn-in/perceptual error and that the headphones did not actually produce an audible difference after a period of use. Only before and after measurements would absolutely prove that. However, in the vast majority of cases there turns out to be either no audible difference at all or a difference due to the ear pads compressing over a long period of use and the perceived differences were due to perception error/brain burn-in.

Not very scientific (sorry Greg ) , more anecdotal, just one mans thoughts.

True but it does agree with the science.

G

 

[gregorio]

I wonder this too.

That’s not even slightly surprising, for two reasons:

1. Most of the time we’re completely unaware that there’s a difference between reality and our perception of what we see/hear. The only time we typically are aware is when we’re slapped in the face with it, when we see a magician perform an impossible task by illusion or when we see or hear an optical or aural illusion we know to be an illusion. Most of the time this difference between reality and perception is beneficial, for example it’s a good thing that our brain fills in the gaps and creates a perception of continuity when we blink every second or so and we no longer see the world around us.

2. Quite a few audiophile products rely exclusively on the existence of perceptual error and the ease with which it can be manipulated. Perception and perceptual error is therefore ALWAYS severely downplayed in audiophile marketing (and therefore in audiophile reviews and discussions) and if/when it is even mentioned, it’s routinely highly misrepresented!

G

 

[castleofargh]

As the consumption of ice-cream increases, the number of people who die from drowning increases. Therefore, eating ice-cream causes drowning.

I have a pair of sundaras and when I got them they were extremely bright, lifeless and harsh I could barely listen to them I had my girlfriend listen to them (she’s not really into the whole audio stuff just uses AirPods) and she also said bluntly “they sound bad” but after “burn in” they sounded amazing to me and my girlfriend who never heard them again until two weeks later when I asked her to try them again (because I was really curious about this whole burn in thing) said the same thing, they sounded great now.

Fast forward back in February I had a friend come over and I asked if he wanted to try my Sundaras. He’s like my girlfriend as in he’s not really into the whole audio gear stuff, also has AirPods like my girlfriend and some gaming headset he uses when gaming. He put them on and was blown away by them even saying “WOW!” After one song in particular (Mother by Danzig if anyone wants to know).

How come he didn’t experience the brain burn in of my Sundaras and went directly into being blown away? How come my girlfriend who listened to my Sundaras once in the beginning for two minutes and said they were “bad” then two weeks later say they were “great”. She had two minutes of experience with them in the beginning no brain burn in for two weeks and suddenly they sounded great to her.

How can this be the gear not burning in and that it’s brain burn in?

If we go by science, when we have some idea, we try all we can to consider why it could be wrong and we test to disprove our idea. It's how well the idea resists such effort that makes it valuable.
On the other hand, finding an explanation we agree with, that's merely seeking validation.

Perhaps the headphone does sound "better".
But perhaps it's because the pads got a slightly better shape giving better seal(more low end).
Perhaps you both had a really crappy day or the weather was bad or whatever.
Couple breaker: perhaps she lies because she wants you to feel good about deciding to keep it.
Perhaps what you used for sound in the days or hours previous to trying the Sundaras were so different in FR that it's the difference that jumped into your face, and perhaps different conditions saved you from that experience the next time.
Perhaps it's simply about listening level being too high at first, or about the song used, or gremlins....
Perhaps the first time is simply that special and most people are just too focused on seeking details to be able to enjoy anything.
Perhaps the amp wasn't warm and it somehow matters for ... reasons.
I won't make a list of a thousand possibilities. I have obviously no idea what the situation really is, and hopefully you can reject at least some of my random alternatives with quasi certainty. The point is that in a situation with so little controls and so many assumptions in your reasoning, we can't readily accept that your conclusion has to be the correct one. You really don't have and won't be able to provide further evidence because whatever happened in the beginning, real or psychological, it's gone for good now.

I've had gears that right out of the box acted weirdly(a DAP, and some years before, an IEM) because of too much heat or too much cold when it was delivered. A few hours in the house to reach ambient temperature magically solved everything. At least that's my explanation of what happened, maybe it was burn in? Seems unlikely because while resting for a few hours they weren't doing anything, but without a controlled environment, how can I ever be sure? Maybe those 2minutes at the start were all they needed? I guess I could have put them in the freezer and hope to replicate the problems, but I don't have them anymore and you never had such option to double check your situation. The fact is, we'll never know. What's good for you is that you do enjoy the headphone. At least we have that as a happy ending.