If I am going to use DAC - does selection of CD player matter at all?

[Behemot]

it could be noobish question. But I just hate wasting money on getting the same feature/components twice in two pieces of gear...
Anyway:
>> if I am going to use a DAC - can I just grab el cheapo DVD/CD/MP3 player that has optical out?
Or are there actually any benefits in burning cash and getting some branded CD player? Considering it will feeds coax/optical input on the DAC (or a receiver)
(I have active monitor speakers should that matter)

 

[Wizardry]

Hi,

I have exactly the same question, as my own example could illustrate Behemot's request.

I have an ASTRY AR2605 DVD/CD player, primarily used as a basic DVD player.

As this DVD/CD player was sold approx 60 € in 2004 in France, it can be considered as a "cheap" CD player. However, despite its low price, it comes with two digital audio out (both coaxial and optical)

.

That's why, in order to complete my system (a forecoming Heed Canamp coupled with a HD650), I'm now thinking about using it as my high fidelity source (instead of using my SBLive analog out soundcard

).

As asked by Behemot, in your opinion, does quality of this CD player matter if I insert a DAC in this system ? in term of sound, and other criterias ?

Your advices and contributions should be highly appreciated !

Wizardry

 

[kramer5150]

tested blindly (my back to the sources) I could not tell the difference between a mid-fi ($150) deck with toslink and any of the high end transports.

But thats just me. I tend to be much less perceptive of source differences once you reach that ~$150 mark. Others disagree.

 

[mofonyx]

I had asked a friend (kin0kin) about this, and whether I would have any differences using an optical out from a Philips Aurilium PSC805 and a E-MU 1616m

Apparently, he told me that there was audible difference when feeding the Benchmark DAC-1 from a cheap optical out transport, it sounded much better for him on an E-MU.

Well?

 

[colonelkernel8]

There would certainly be a noticeable difference between a higher-end player and a extreme low-end with a DAC. It has a lot to do with the drive mechanics, balance, optics (laser), etc.

 

[audioengr]

Of course it matters. The jitter on the digital signal is primarily a function of the design of the Transport and the quality of the digital cable used. The better these designs are, the less jitter, which means better focus, imaging and bass tightness.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
Manufacturer

 

[Ori]

Transports make a difference. No transport can read the media perfectly, which surely makes a difference in quality. Then you have the jitter issue, especially for non-reclocking DACs. Last you have noise properties, which differ considerably between transports. Remember that the transport produces RF signals and without proper shielding and suppression hardware this RF may leak to other components in your system.
Differences exist but more money does not always equate better quality. Judge for yourself.
Quote:

Originally Posted by kramer5150 tested blindly (my back to the sources) I could not tell the difference between a mid-fi ($150) deck with toslink and any of the high end transports.

Tested blindly you probably won't tell the difference from a boombox either. Tested long term you might.

 

[Behemot]

Thanks for all your replies!

 

[minktoast]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ori /img/forum/go_quote.gif Tested blindly you probably won't tell the difference from a boombox either. Tested long term you might.

Fair point Ori - but in my experience with (relatively) untrained ears the difference between transports is small. I'd put my money into a good DAC first (where I have noticed differences) and then maybe try to get a loan of an expensive transport** and get a friend to help you do some proper randomised blind listening tests. Make sure you can identify each transport successfully over at least 10 tests. I couldn't. But you might have better trained ears than mine (and I don't doubt that Ori has!) - there's only one way to find out.

** (or if you're into computers perhaps try a computer outputting bitperfect optical from a lossless format (e.g. FLAC) from a CD that has been ripped by EAC in secure mode.)

 

[minktoast]

I meant to answer these bits as well:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ori /img/forum/go_quote.gif Transports make a difference. No transport can read the media perfectly, which surely makes a difference in quality.

Agreed - but error correction on modern CD players is pretty clever.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Ori /img/forum/go_quote.gif Then you have the jitter issue, especially for non-reclocking DACs.

There's a lot of debate about whether jitter can really be heard to reduce sound quality (see other threads). I suspect it's so small as to be not noticeable in most systems.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ori /img/forum/go_quote.gif Last you have noise properties, which differ considerably between transports. Remember that the transport produces RF signals and without proper shielding and suppression hardware this RF may leak to other components in your system.

Doesn't using an optical output remove these issues? (Not sure about this - Ori has much more technical knowledge than me - what do you think?)

 

[feckn_eejit]

My Pass Labs D1 dac does reclock using the S/PDIF receiver as a reference in a PLL, and I still notice differences between different high-end transports.

I don't think the difference between transports is due to different error correction, it's all about jitter... CEC does the belt-driven thing since they feel the motor being isolated from the weighted spindle carrying the CD smooths out vibrations caused by the motor, resulting in a more steady stream of data off the disc.

I am about to upgrade the clock in two of my transports and am very curious to see what results I'll see.

Steve's solutions with the OffRamp and I2S bus are probably pretty close to the best we can do, but I just can't bring myself to do the computer audio thing at this point in time.

Oh, and the standard Toslink/EIAJ optical interface is godawful.

You don't need to buy a whole CD player to feed a dac, just buy a CD transport. It will have digital outputs only, and no built-in DAC.

 

[DennyL]

My understanding is that there is a huge amount of error correction incorporated in the Red Book standard, and if the drive is working properly, then there will be only about one error bit per second in the bit-stream going to the DAC. I don't think this is audible. The error correction is there to cope with all the imponderables, such as damage to the CD, laser mis-tracking, etc.

As a comparison, when one burns some software to a CD ROM on a computer (this is Yellow Book, with more error correction, because software can't tolerate any errors), one doesn't worry about one make of CD ROM drive doing it slightly better than another (ie there is no computer nerd equivalent of a golden-eared hi-fi enthusiast). If the drive is burning bad CD ROMs , it is faulty and you will soon discover it, and it should be replaced. Similarly a CDP that's in good working order conforms to the Red Book standard, and has plenty of error correction for its purpose.

 

[fjf]

I can tell you that a decent DAC sounds fine when fed digitally from a cheap DVD. It maybe that an expensive transport can sound better, but good DAC correct for jitter and reclock the signal and are engineered to deal with those problems. To a normal Joe, it'll sound good. And it the DVD dies, just throw it away and get a new one. Try that with an expensive CDp!.

 

[Toka]

The only answer is 'it depends'. Depends on the DAC, mostly. So, someone could say there is no difference, and someone else could say there is a difference, and they could both be right (assuming they have different DAC's). My personal opinion? A good DAC makes the transport irrelevant.

 

[fjf]

In addition, many, many audiophiles argue that CDps make many read errors reading from CDs. I wonder how different is an audio CD from a data CD in that regard. If that were true, we would not be able to install any software or read any data from a CD to a computer reliably. And yet, this seems to work remarkably well, even with cheap CD drivers. It must be that bytes from data CDs are diferent from bytes from audio CDs