If I am going to use DAC - does selection of CD player matter at all?

[Fidelity]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fjf /img/forum/go_quote.gif In addition, many, many audiophiles argue that CDps make many read errors reading from CDs. I wonder how different is an audio CD from a data CD in that regard. If that were true, we would not be able to install any software or read any data from a CD to a computer reliably. And yet, this seems to work remarkably well, even with cheap CD drivers. It must be that bytes from data CDs are diferent from bytes from audio CDs

http://www.stereophile.com/features/827/index4.html

 

[fjf]

Very informative

This explains why oh why Jitter is so important.

 

[Wizardry]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fjf /img/forum/go_quote.gif I can tell you that a decent DAC sounds fine when fed digitally from a cheap DVD. It maybe that an expensive transport can sound better, but good DAC correct for jitter and reclock the signal and are engineered to deal with those problems. To a normal Joe, it'll sound good. And it the DVD dies, just throw it away and get a new one. Try that with an expensive CDp!.

Thanks for all contributors here, your posts are indeed very instructive !

fjf I appreciate your pragmatic approach, that is exactly the way I'm looking for.

Since my wallet is recovering from the recent purchase of a head amplifier, I didn't intend to invest in a new and expensive CD player or transport, as most shortcomings of my cheap CD / DVD player could be managed with its digital output paired with a "decent" DAC able to avoid / take care of nearly all kind of Sound Quality issues (jitter and clock...).

According to your opinion, what could be such a "decent" DAC ? I mean, in a decent price range

eg from $200 to $400 ?

 

[tourmaline]

I would say not if the dac reclocks the signal, otherwise, yes transport is really important!

 

[pageman99]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wizardry /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thanks for all contributors here, your posts are indeed very instructive ! fjf I appreciate your pragmatic approach, that is exactly the way I'm looking for. Since my wallet is recovering from the recent purchase of a head amplifier, I didn't intend to invest in a new and expensive CD player or transport, as most shortcomings of my cheap CD / DVD player could be managed with its digital output paired with a "decent" DAC able to avoid / take care of nearly all kind of Sound Quality issues (jitter and clock...). According to your opinion, what could be such a "decent" DAC ? I mean, in a decent price range eg from $200 to $400 ?

Well, there IS a lot of good info here.

And I can only add my experience FWIW.

#1. TOSLINK is simply not as good as good coax. This is from listening experience for the last 2 years as I've built my system. Perhaps glass toslink works better, but I personally think coax is AT LEAST twice as good as toslink. VERY obvious in listening tests.

#2. A good DAC is essential. A cheap transport can work but don't expect it's DAC to be very good. I've tested a number of inexpensive transports, Sony's, Samsung's and LG's. Their output is marginal. Period. Except when you send the digital out to a good DAC or upsampler. See below.

#3. Upsample, upsample, upsample. I use a Behringer SRC2496 as an upsampler behind an inexpensive LG universal DVD player. Very flexible. You can choose, by pushing buttons, 42 (I think, can't remember at the moment), 44.1, 48, 88.2 and 96 mhz. You can also choose 16, 20 and 24 bit lengths. You can also choose whether to dither or not. PLUS you can use the source's internal clock or the SRC's internal clock. All of this in ANY combination. THE BEST PART: it can be purchased for around $125. It was out of stock for almost 9 months, but new stock is available now. BTW you can strip copy protection from DVD's if that floats your boat. But I personally don't use that. And it also will convert to balanced output FWIW.

#4. I use a Musiland MD-10 DAC. cost me $285 shipped from iFi.com. Has Coax, Toslink, BNC and USB inputs built in. I've had no problem running any of these. Coax IMO sounds best. YMMV of course. Sound is warm, rich and controlled. I'll post a detailed review later on the appropriate thread later.

#5. DON'T scrimp on interconnects. When I started this chase a couple of years ago, I scoffed at those who spent hundreds on interconnects. I no longer laugh. FWIW, Rat Shack currently has $40 Monster coax cables on sale for $10. Not perfect but very good for the price. The same goes for Rat Shack Gold interconnects for around $10, very neutral and hard to beat for the price. I've also been happy with Blue Jeans custom cables, very good prices and great service.


OK I've got a universal generic DVD running into an SRC 2496 which I use to upsample to 24 bits and 96 mhz while running the SRC's internal clock. Then I dither. Then run into the Musiland then into a Mapletree Ear+HD Purist. Or a rebuilt Kenwood 7300 (new caps etc.), an integrated amp from the golden age of the late '70's which has a fabulous sounding headphone out etc. etc. Believe me it rivals $800 and up SS currently available headphone amps. I've a-b'd a number of them, and I still love the Kenwood.

How does it sound? Pretty darn good. IMO this relatively inexpensive solution rivals systems costing thousands more.

Quite simply the system is now headphone limited. Period.

As a caveat, I will say if you're blessed with golden ears and have years of experience with many, many different systems, you can do better.

Is it worth many thousands more?? For me, no. Though, I'm sure I'll continue to tweak and chase nirvana. That's what we do here, isn't it?

For you? Who knows. But I've at least given what, in my opinion, is a great starting place.

Let's see. Generic DVD transport. About $125, SRC another $125, Musiland $285. Great headphones, you pick: about $300. Rebuilt Kenwood or similar $200 plus shipping.

$1,100 gets you about as good as you can get. Pick a pair of stereo speakers and you've got a great system.

Unfortunately for me, I spent a LOT more learning all this. Oh well... hopefully I've saved you a bunch by posting here.

 

[Wizardry]

Thanks you pageman99 for sharing so much valuable and detailed information.
The HD650 will be amped by a Heed Canamp, which is on the way and should deliver in few weeks

; for everything else : DAC, SRC, interconnect... I will carefully investigate your precious advices which undoubtly will help saving time and money !

Wizardry

 

[JSTpt1022]

Quote:

#1. TOSLINK is simply not as good as good coax. This is from listening experience for the last 2 years as I've built my system. Perhaps glass toslink works better, but I personally think coax is AT LEAST twice as good as toslink. VERY obvious in listening tests.

Pageman I'm curious if you've tried this test with computer based sources. A coax connection is an electrical digital signal is it not? In a computer based system I would think it would be better not to have an electrica link between the computer and the rest of the system.

 

[regal]

No the CDP doesn't matter, people spend tens of thousands of dollars on transports because its more fun than burning money.

 

[The Monkey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by regal /img/forum/go_quote.gif No the CDP doesn't matter, people spend tens of thousands of dollars on transports because its more fun than burning money.

I actually think that's true of $1000 ICs.

 

[Mikesul]

Is there any data to support the idea that a properly functitoning, inexpensive transport will cause problems?

 

[pageman99]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSTpt1022 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Pageman I'm curious if you've tried this test with computer based sources. A coax connection is an electrical digital signal is it not? In a computer based system I would think it would be better not to have an electrica link between the computer and the rest of the system.

Used it with a very poor computer system, not mine. Sound was ok. Have tested a DEQ2496 into USB. Not bad. I'm no computer sound expert and don't claim to be. Maybe someone else will chime in.

Coax is digital, all connections are electrical in one form or another. As for your premise. You're thinking too much in my opinion. Try it yourself and see what you think. For me, in my experience, coax simply sounds better by far. To each his own though. I tend to like rich sound, maybe at the expense of accuracy???? I don't think so. But you might.

BTW, I stated the SRC strips DVD encryption, I meant to say CD. DVD, I dunno.

 

[rhester]

I have trialed a cheap sony 5 disc carousel, same source into a dac-1, a ML transport and same transport into the DAC-1. The carousel is OK into a good integrated. The carousel with the Benchmark made a whole world of difference. The ML transport was just a tad better than the carousel into the DAC-1 and the ML into the DAC-1 was exceptional. My wive came up with the same views and she knows nothing of stereo equipment. But mind you that as you climb up the audiophile chain, the improvements become marginal for large amounts of money. You have to find what sound best for you at the money you are willing to layout.

 

[Wizardry]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pageman99 /img/forum/go_quote.gif (...) #3. Upsample, upsample, upsample. I use a Behringer SRC2496 as an upsampler behind an inexpensive LG universal DVD player. Very flexible. You can choose, by pushing buttons, 42 (I think, can't remember at the moment), 44.1, 48, 88.2 and 96 mhz. You can also choose 16, 20 and 24 bit lengths. You can also choose whether to dither or not. PLUS you can use the source's internal clock or the SRC's internal clock. All of this in ANY combination. THE BEST PART: it can be purchased for around $125. It was out of stock for almost 9 months, but new stock is available now. BTW you can strip copy protection from DVD's if that floats your boat. But I personally don't use that. And it also will convert to balanced output FWIW. (...)

Why upsampling is so important ? Could'nt a DAC be sufficient ?

 

[pageman99]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wizardry /img/forum/go_quote.gif Why upsampling is so important ? Could'nt a DAC be sufficient ?

A DAC is sufficient. Upsampling is just a way to improve the sound, at least in the opinion of some. But upsampling is by no means necessary.