IC material sound signatures?

[grandenigma1]

I think testing them in your system is the ultimate test. Obviously build quality, materials used, and geometry are key factors but when it comes down to it just because a cable is $50 or $5,000 does not determine how well it will sound in your system.

There are also many confounding variables that can add to or detract from your impression of cables... weather (humidity and such), other surrounding electronics, your ears that day and so on. Different locations and applications require different cables (shielded, unshielded etc...).

I think the shear number of cables out there all with the "best" design should be a hint that there is not one ideal way to configure a cable.

The most traditional "popular" configuration is a tri-braid. Silver for speed and brightness, copper for smoothness and more mellow sound, and a mix of the two for a hybrid effect.

 

[rickcr42]

Quote:

rickster, help me out here, but on one of the links you provided here on another thread it talked about 1st, 2nd, and 3rd order effects of the variable of cables, where 1st order effects had the most effect on sound and 3rd order had the least or most indistinguishable effect on sound for cables. I believe cable construction is a 1st order effect, whereas type of wire used is a 3rd order effect; according to this article which i hope rickmeister can help me find again, that means the wire whether its copper or silver has the least effect on sound vs. the actual construction and braiding of the wire itself.

yes,construction geometry is the most audible all things being equal (and usually they are not

) and that is why you see so many variations of cables from different companies that use the same type of wire internally but yet sounding so different.
If it was JUST silver vs. copper it would be an easy choice maybe but even length of the cable makes a difference.

I will be damned if I can acually hear any difference in one #24 wire from another when it is internal wiring of a project being used as the test (and i keep all wiring short anyway) but as soon as we get to the 3-6 ft length sound becomes a factor and simply swapping cables in and out have perceptable sound differences.
Is it the jacks ? The solder ? Wire ? Construction method ? All ?

I can even take three cables using the very same magnet wire or the identical silver wire but each using a different construction method and THAT will sound different !

So I think while all have some effect it is mostly minimal until you come to interconnect topology even though I can not prove this.
I am also convinced our mind plays tricks and an ugly cable sounds ugly and a pretty one sounds good so the cable manufacturers put as much effort into the "look' as they do the actual method or science so maybe there should be a category #4 added- "cosmetics and effect on sound quality".


If I was extremely paranoid about this I could spend the rest of my life swapping and listening to interconnects but life being short I just say screw it and use the same wire for everything but a couple of areas (I use the silver at the front end for turntable to phono stage connection).

That is the #22 enameled copper magnet wire which internally is twisted pairs and externally,the actual interconnects with plugs the PBJ clones or PBJ/XLR cables depending on cable length and if it is a SE or BAL connection.Three actual wires and all covered with teflex just to pretty it up and make these "whimpy" feeling cables have a little more sustantial "feel".

I still experiment from time to time but in the end have no urgent need after these experiments to change out all my interconnects for anything new and once past the source to line stage connection I don't like a mix and match approach to connections.
Again the "imagination" thing and mind games.
Yes it sounds different but is this new sound a better one or just different ?
And how do I know if it IS if I do not change ALL the cables from the front end to the power amp/headphone amp ?

I have noticed just from screwing around that whatever part of the signal path has the most coloration and the largest perceived difference is a bad thing becasue if transparent how would you know it was even there ? so by dominating the sound,the "WOW ! THAT SOUNDS GREAT !" it must be coloring the sound right ?
I think maybe the best cable is the one that when you swap it in does not jump out but just allows a tad more information to flow through,maybe just a bit less conjestion, and it is my personal opinion these are usually the most simple designs and using a small guage solid conductor be it silver or copper.

then again,if I had all the answers maybe it would be me making and selling cables so I just kick back and let the music play and leave sweating the details to others.

I just provide the links man so folks can do the research but I never said I agree with everything-down that path leads madness because none of the "experts" seem to agree on anything

Rickster,wired and ready

 

[RnB180]

I got to listen to some gold wire today.

very nice

!

very warm, actually super warm sounding, its a got a rough sound to it, but its delicously warm and no sibilance. I like it

 

[RnB180]

here are my thoughts on wire chracteristics, Ive listened to probably all the wire types available.

copper: rolled off treble response, excellent full mids and average to above average in bass response smooth, and non-fatiguing.

silver plated copper: can be detailed and airy, does not have the over brightness of silver, tighter bass response then copper, decent sounding mids. probably the most neutral sounding of all the material types, copper and silver plated copper are very close in the neutral department.

silver: bright, lacking in bass response, overly forward.

Gold alloy: rough sound on the higher frequencies, laid back, not forward at all, superior bass and mid bass response. the roughness at the top frequencies may be fatiguing to some.

solid core silver plated copper, not stranded has been the most favorable in musicality from my experience.


just my 2 cents.

 

[Glod]

Hey guys, you are forgetting a wire material of significance here

[size=x-large]Carbon[/size]

Yes, I don't give up and will point out the appealing characteristics of that material - again

-Straight, like an arrow, frequency response, with in general a very unforced presentation.

-Bottomless and powerful bass extension.

-Sweet and balanced treble.

-A bit distant reproduction: You're sitting a bit in the back in the concert hall.

-Huge soundstage with a lot of atmosphere.

-And I think the adjective dark could be applied, as apposed to lively, up front and fast.

 

[RnB180]

sounds interesting

are you talking about this?
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalo.../musicwire.php

if so I will pick some up to give it a listen.

 

[Glod]

Hmm - interesting. I thought high carbon steel was quite brittle. Anyway, no, I meant this .

Well known brand in England, Germany and of course the Netherlands. Mostly famous for their phono cartridges and turntable wires. I am not affiliated what so ever with them, I just like their IC's very much, or actually the The First Ultimate to be precise. However, it is the 1st generation which I like the most (now discontinued?). The mk.II is different but not necessarily less good.

EDIT: I found it very peculiar too, the first time I saw these cables: The conducting material is 100% carbon fibres, thus a non-metal conductor

 

[Gabe Logan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RnB180 here are my thoughts on wire chracteristics, Ive listened to probably all the wire types available. copper: rolled off treble response, excellent full mids and average to above average in bass response smooth, and non-fatiguing. silver plated copper: can be detailed and airy, does not have the over brightness of silver, tighter bass response then copper, decent sounding mids. probably the most neutral sounding of all the material types, copper and silver plated copper are very close in the neutral department. silver: bright, lacking in bass response, overly forward. Gold alloy: rough sound on the higher frequencies, laid back, not forward at all, superior bass and mid bass response. the roughness at the top frequencies may be fatiguing to some. solid core silver plated copper, not stranded has been the most favorable in musicality from my experience. just my 2 cents.

Time to bring this thread from the dead

.

Anyways i completed a pair of IC's last weeked consisting of silver with silver coated rca plugs.You would think this combination with Grado's would have piercing highs but so far after around 10 hours of use i can honestly say they sound detailed with no harsh highs that i was expecting.

I do agree with them lacking bad in the bass dept which is a big no no for me but hopefully a singlepower slam could even things out.

If the Silver IC dont match up well i might go for the silver coated copper.

 

[luukas]

Visiting the VDH site has left me a bit puzzled - is it common that there's no separate lead for ground, and instead the shielding is used for that purpose? I thought it was best to have 2 leads and connect the shield to the source only?

 

[markl]

IMO, I feel I've heard enough different ICs of varying construction/design/materials to conclude that it's very hard to make generalizations about the sound of any of their component parts. I've heard great variability regardless of build materials.

 

[Ori]

Quote:

Originally Posted by markl ...varying construction/design/materials to conclude that it's very hard to make generalizations about the sound of any of their component parts.

Amen!!!

 

[michaelhwolff]

Absolutely Correct,
There are way to many variables. Connectors used (composition, design, ohm rating), Termination (solder type, solder vs. compression), Configuration of conductive metals (thickness or gauge, round, stranded, solid, flat, gold, silver etc.), Dielectrics (teflon, polys, thickness, if it is bonded to the wire or seperate), Shielding (aluminum, stainless, copper, exotic material, if it is braided), Final Assemby ( how all the above is put together).

So on and so on. I could go on.

 

[eyeteeth]

Personally it's a great relief to know the cable makers think that cables sound different. The suspense was killing me!

"For a long time there has been faith in the technical community that eventually some objective analysis would reconcile critical listener's subjective experience with laboratory measurement.

Perhaps this will occur, but in the meantime, audiophiles largely reject bench specifications as an indicator of audio quality. This is appropriate. Appreciation of audio is a subjective human experience. We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we would let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."
Nelson Pass

I can't say I subscribe 100% to anything but that last line really appeals to the poet in me...that means I like it a lot! Hey it's sig change time.

 

[Gabe Logan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by michaelhwolff Absolutely Correct, There are way to many variables. Connectors used (composition, design, ohm rating), Termination (solder type, solder vs. compression), Configuration of conductive metals (thickness or gauge, round, stranded, solid, flat, gold, silver etc.), Dielectrics (teflon, polys, thickness, if it is bonded to the wire or seperate), Shielding (aluminum, stainless, copper, exotic material, if it is braided), Final Assemby ( how all the above is put together). So on and so on. I could go on.

Tha't what i was afraid of.It look's like it's going to be a trial and error thing to get the desired sound.

 

[Gabe Logan]

dp