[pandasonic]

I haven't had too much experience in dealing with cables and interconnects - I bought a set of Canare Starquad ICs and just never bothered to look at anything else. But as of late I've been a bit curious.

I would like to know what are the differences in relative sound signatures between the different conductors - mainly say copper, silver etc. and types such as Starquad, Belden, etc.

 

[rickcr42]

generalisations are not exact because cable topolgy-the type of construction methos has also a lot to do with the final sound but :

Copper :Nuetral to smooth-not at the expense of detail but the ideal for bright electronics and /or SS

Silver : Nuetral to brighter-not zingy unless mated to hard electronics and an ideal match for electronics tending towrds the soft side of nuetral

you really should do your own flavor testing with your own electronics.My system uses both in different areas for different needs though mostly thin guage solid copper

 

[Jon L]

The final sound will so heavily depend on design and implementation that you shouldn't go by just the material used. 2 cables using the exact same silver wire can sound drastically different depending on geometry, dielectric, damping, plugs used, etc, etc. If you want a quick "taste" for generalities, then..

Copper

All around good bet and more likely to fit into a system without too much incompatibility issues. Go for high purity, continuous cast copper if possible. Tends to have good midrange texture and robustness and better warmth in bass. Overall detail can be good, but apparent detail may seem less compared to silver due to less highlighting of transients and extreme treble. If done wrong, copper can actually sound more grainy and peaky in upper mids than silver. There's perhaps slight bit of "copper hue" that may interfere with microscopic nanometer details.

Silver

Unless one takes extreme care design of silver cable, it's almost better to stick with copper. Most silver cables tend to have silver signature, i.e. you can tell it's silver. I'm not talking about the old days when some bad silver cables gave silver a bad name, being called "bright, grainy, screechy, etc, etc. Nowadays, a good silver cable is smooth, even, fast, and detailed. Sounds more pure and pellucid than copper. Low-midrange to upper/mid bass can sound a bit too "neutral" compared to copper, and while extreme treble is usually very well extended, the rest of treble can sound a bit too squeaky clean. Bass is not as bloomy, either, though usually tighter. It's very difficult to make a great silver cable without the silver signature, but Silversmith silver IC is one of them..

Gold

Very dense, robust sound. Has a bit of "golden glow" much like the copper hue, but not objectionably so. More well-behaved and less grainy/peaky than copper can be but just as detailed as copper (some good copper can be very detailed!). Sometimes the high treble seem rolled off, though, even compared to copper, and some creative design choices are need to prevent sounding too polite. But the density of instruments/vocals are very addicting.

Gold/silver/copper alloys

A unique sound. More airy than gold, smoother than copper, warmer than silver. Good but not great detail resolution like silver. This stuff can be made to sound very fulfilling while giving enough detail to be engaging. The main thing that may bother some people is that imaging is not as focused and tight as other metals, especially silver.

Palladium

Also has a unique voice. Kind of like gold in density but with more treble clarity and speed. Does not sound lean or sharp like silver sometimes can, and does not sound too golden like some copper or alloys. Subjectively seems to have quieter background b/c instruments/vocals jump out of darker background. Definitely everyone should play around a bit with Palladium wire. The Palladium "alloy" (very secret recipe) used by Silversmith audio for their Palladium IC ($4000/3 foot) sounds to me even better than Palladium, but it's unobtanium...

 

[recstar24]

Rather than start another thread, could you guys comment on the various construction and braiding techniques and their effect on the sound as well? Throw in connectors and dialectrics as well for good measure if you are up to it

 

[rickcr42]

you don't want much do you

i suggest you cruise the various manufactirer sites and read the white papers and tech sections then weigh that with what you have personally experienced as close to the truth as you know it and then do what you really have to so in the end :

Purchase cables like a lunatic and compare them all in your system

so many variants there really is no way to generalise and be right on target and that is the reason for my intial "general' answer.not only that but personal taste is a big part of selecting a cable if you are into that.

Me,i just run with three flavors system wide and have no imperitive to compare others to see if my choices are the best choices.i would rather listen to music than to cables

 

[recstar24]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickcr42 you don't want much do you

What, was what i was asking for too much

Dont worry, you know i love the music but i love tweaking the music a little bit as well, its a curse i tell you to have a system with enough resolving power to even notice the differences, should of stayed with the ipod and sr60's...

Hmmm, let me form a cable wish list...dennis boyle's chimera labs IC's using continous cast copper, chris venhaus pulsar ic's, and finally grover ur's, if i could get my hands on those three and compare them with my nordost blue heavens than i swear i will be done with cables, i promise

PS, rickster, you may think your naturally cool, but im still cooler and i dont drool either

 

[rickcr42]

Quote:

Dont worry, you know i love the music but i love tweaking the music a little bit as well, its a curse i tell you to have a system with enough resolving power to even notice the differences, should of stayed with the ipod and sr60's...

yes.it IS a curse.I went for knowing nothing and happy in my ignorance to being a fanatic and trying everything to screw it and just listening to music again and happy that my choices were good enough

Quote:

PS, rickster, you may think your naturally cool, but im still cooler and i dont drool either

wait 'til you get to be my age.Drooling will be the least of your worries

Coolmaster Rickmeister Flash

 

[Jon L]

Quote:

Originally Posted by recstar24 Rather than start another thread, could you guys comment on the various construction and braiding techniques and their effect on the sound as well? Throw in connectors and dialectrics as well for good measure if you are up to it

Haha, some cable manufacturers charge you thousands of $ for that type of information know-how. If you found out, the cable cartel might have to make you "disappear."

There's some basics here:

http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/i1.htm

I don't agree with some of the stuff he says, but it's all system-dependent and personal preference-dependent.

I will just give a few examples of what I know to 'work.'

The Chimera lab approach is great. I've tried DIY version using the thin-awg enamel Vampire magnet copper wire in 4-wire braid like Chimera, and it sounds great. Great sound at cheap prices.

Same braiding technique doesn't necessarily go with thin-awg silver wire in teflon, as it doesn't get rid of the silver signature. With silver, if possible, I would go with thin-awg silver ribbon. While I don't like shielding with copper recipes, most silver cables will sound better with good shielding. Just make sure you space out the shield as far away from conductors as possible.

If you are using thin wire in hollow teflon tubing like everyone these days, make sure you have some sort of damping material on the cable. Free-flopping thin wire inside the "air dielectric" can sound bad.

The most pain-free diy approach seems to be buying Chris VH pulsar wire and just making your own. It's hard to mess this up. VH Pulsars sound great, especially at the price.

Eichmann plugs are great, but they do have a sound of their own, especially bass that may be a bit light compared to other plugs. Don't overlook the good old Vampire OFC plug, for example.

If you plan to experiment and go with your own secret recipe, be prepared to spend lots of time and sweat to come up with something that will sound great. It may end up costing more $ than just buying a pre-made kit or cable.

 

[RnB180]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon L If you are using thin wire in hollow teflon tubing like everyone these days, make sure you have some sort of damping material on the cable. Free-flopping thin wire inside the "air dielectric" can sound bad.

hrm.. I disagree many cable manufactures use air teflon dielectric and just run wire floating in the teflon tube.

how does this sound bad?

 

[rickcr42]

actually the wires are usually over a foamed core and the wires criss-crossed over this then the outer jacket added.

some even go as far as to use a cotton core though being from an area that gets humid in the summer no way I would want soggy wires

free floating wires in a tube large enough to allow wire movement is a bad design method.
The same wires in a tight outter cover is fine and I have made some fair interconnects using #22 magnet wire in twisted pairs or PBJ braids then used plastic tubing (pet store

) to cover the wires

 

[Jon L]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RnB180 hrm.. I disagree many cable manufactures use air teflon dielectric and just run wire floating in the teflon tube. how does this sound bad?

Well, I guess "bad" is a strong word. It's just that these same wires can sound better if judicious damping is used. I know that many, if not most, Audiogon cable sellers use free floating wire in teflon tubing, and I have made same DIY IC's. They can sound good and maybe even great, but I always like the sonics better when something is damping the cable.

Some people do this by using teflon string spiralling the wire inside the teflon tube; some use wooden blocks; some just use cable jacket/rubber as damping. The thinner the wire, the worse the free floating seems to sound. Overdamping also sounds bad, killing life and speed, but a a couple of damping points on the entire IC can be a great thing IME.

 

[RnB180]

what are these perceived sonic detractions do you observe with free floating wire?

I have a pair that I use once in a while for my headphone rig and it sounds perfectly fine. I can't imagine how much improvement a a dampened wire inside the tube can yield.

I can barely perceive a difference between silver plated and pure silver 99.999%

the differnece almost bordered on imaginary imo, while there seemed to be a noticeable difference comparing those to pure copper wire.

If the silver wire was dampened, Id really like to know how much more would benefit, If I could barely tell the difference between pure silver and silver plated wire.

Interesting though, maybe I should wrap the wire with yarn?

seems a bit of a hassle for me though since the wire is so thin and I guess one can go out to the local craft store and pick up foam and wrap the wire around that prior to tflon tube insertion but then it gets really complicated after that and youd need to figure out a way to seperate the ground and signal wires.

a lot of hassle imo.

 

[rickcr42]

the bottom line is that interconnect geometry has as much to do with the end sound as does the wire material,be it silver or copper.
So any "what is the sound of silver vs copper" questions have to many variables for there to be a single definitive answer.
Then there is the shielded/unsheilded thing and another variable thrown in.
A PBJ style braid,twisted pair or parallel run is a very minimal to no shield and a poor choice for long runs (over two meters or so) in the average home but may work fine for shorter cables from line stage to amp if the amps are on the same rack.
Having said that all I use is the two twist or three wire braid but in the long runs I go fully balanced XLR which takes the very same braided cable and uses one of the grounds as the "-" connection.
I have mostly found I can get away with no shield because the common mode rejection of the balanced line cancels out any noise.If a single ended cable a shield would be required for the same lenght of cable.

 

[Jon L]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RnB180 what are these perceived sonic detractions do you observe with free floating wire?

It IS a hassle to wrap the wire with something and apply tubing. You can get pretty good results by just damping the outside of tubing with something. I once made a damper using chopsticks (that's right) and rubber bands. It definitely improved bass weight and focus of sound. I have an old picture here..

http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/m...view_photo.php

 

[recstar24]

rickster, help me out here, but on one of the links you provided here on another thread it talked about 1st, 2nd, and 3rd order effects of the variable of cables, where 1st order effects had the most effect on sound and 3rd order had the least or most indistinguishable effect on sound for cables. I believe cable construction is a 1st order effect, whereas type of wire used is a 3rd order effect; according to this article which i hope rickmeister can help me find again, that means the wire whether its copper or silver has the least effect on sound vs. the actual construction and braiding of the wire itself.

RnB180, you should check out chris venhaus at vhaudio and dennis boyle at chimera - they are hardcore DIY'ers that have been in the game a long time, they make IC's but they also sell the parts and you make them, a lot of what rick and jon are talking about stand right next with their design philosophies of cables and i can tell you their cables kicked the crap out of my nordost blue heavens and MIT Terminators, thats for sure and i will articulate why and how exactly in another thread.

Go to the websites, they tell you exactly how their cables are constructed and how to construct them and they justify their process with knowledgeable info as well